Punch-Linking & the 21st Century

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Kleenk!! Outta Stalag 13!!! You are kidding John??? Where is the connection!!???? I agree that things can be studied, but this is ludicris.....IMHO

John Lorenzo <johnmenc@optonline.net> wrote:If you look down this thread there is some annoying chatter of
someone trying to die link Atkins 64 with a New York City struck
halfpence ... its most bothersome ...

--- In colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com, johnwlouis@a... wrote:
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: JohnWLouis
> To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thu, 05 May 2005 22:13:25 -0400
> Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Re: Punch-Linking & the 21st
Century
>
>
> Hi Andy! Thanks for the reply and thanks for your opinions and
insights. They are appreciated!
> I would however like to make a few comments of my own.....if you
don't mind. Thanks again!
> JWL
> PS I will attempt to reply to your post in red/bold.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Andrew Grenci <agrenci@m...>
> To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wed, 4 May 2005 23:28:01 -0400
> Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Re: Punch-Linking & the 21st
Century
>
>
> Although I seldom post to this list, I'll venture to forge a link
between "scientific theories" and theories about the coins we
collect.
>
> It is often said about evolution that "it is nothing more than a
theory." This, I think, ignores that it is no small feat for an
idea, a hypothesis, to become a scientific theory. I agree. Any
theory accepted by scientists must account for as much known
evidence as possible. Yes, I agree. When evidence is discovered that
throws doubt upon the theory, or a new hypothesis is proposed that
better accounts for known evidence, scientists will ruthlessly alter
or abandon the past theory. Yes, that is how scientists should and
do operate for the most part. However, for some unknown reason to
me, many secular humanist, atheist scientists hold on to the
original theory of evolution with a death grip. Any other theory or
idea that strays from this doctrine is viewed as pure fantasy. They
are not concerned with how long ago the old theory was written, or
how long it has been accepted, or that it was written in a book a
couple thousand years ago. They will compare it with empirical data
and determine its validity. By definition, all scientific theories
are constantly subject to minor adjustments or major over-halls as
the evidence requires. I'm sure that they are constantly fine tuning
and adjusting and re-writing the original text to include new
discoveries and works. But if the basic foundation that they build
upon is flawed, incorrect, and at the extreme; "far fetched", than
eventually their whole supposition will come crumbling down like a
giant house of cards. (For this reason it is not quite correct to
call it "Darwin's" theory of evolution since it has been altered in
many details since the 1800's.) Yes, but some of the basic
principals still hold dear to the type of scientist/paleontologist
that I just mentioned. Survival of the fittest and natural selection
are a core belief that many subscribe to and in fact are
foundational to their basic premice of chance rather than design and
random rather than purposed. The fact that most non-scientists do
not understand the methods by which data are collected and analyzed
does not does not invalidate the science any more than the fact that
the average Photograde owner can't grade a CT copper (or the average
Redbook owner can't attribute it) invalidates the attributions and
grades of experienced collectors like ourselves. And the fact that
someone cannot attribute a CT like others does not make that person
any less a numismatist. In fact he may hold insights into other
areas of interest and his expertise may far outweigh those of a
small minority group with a limited and narrow focus to a giagantic
and limitless field.
>
> So, if a theory is to be accepted by colonial collectors it can't
be just an idea that someone has, but it must be compared to all
available evidence to see if it measures up to, or surpasses the
past explanations of the coins we collect. Agreed. But we also need
to agree on a starting point or fundamental truth and build from
there. If we cannot, than all we will have is what you call
assertions and beliefs which lack any real cohesion. If we have new
and better ways of collecting or analyzing data which lead to new
conclusions, then we will all better off for it. I agree. In the
meantime it needs to be remembered that in the world of science or
scholarly activity, an "assertion" or "belief" is not yet
a "theory". OK!
>
> Andy - John W. Louis
>
*********************************************************************
******************
> On May 4, 2005, at 10:35 PM, johnwlouis@a... wrote:
>
> > Yes! Just look at Darwin's Theory of Evolution!
> > It is taught as fact even though it is nothing more than a
theory!
> > I went to the Philadelphia Museum of Natural Sciences last week
with a > few friends and their kids and mine too. It's amazing to me
that they > find a few bones and construct a whole dinosaur from
them!!!
> > And, than they talk like they were there 25 > bazillion-million-
quadrillion years ago to see have seen it!!!
> > Simply amazing!!! It takes more faith to believe (what they
believe) > ...."that I climbed out of the primortial oooze and
starting > walking" than it does to believe some of the simple
truths that I hold > dear!
> > I debated one of their paleontologists for nearly an hour. What
he > believes is "science", I believe is "fabrications." And, what
I > believe is truth, he believes is fairy tales and myths!
> > Simply amazing!!! Will either of us change our minds any time >
soon? Probably not,......unfortunately.
> > Now, if one of you would like to tie this example to what we
have been > talking about concerning coins and theories about where
they came > from, then be my guest!!! I'm tired!!!
> > JWLouis
> >
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
II > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: palmers4@e... <palmers4@e...>
> > To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Wed, 4 May 2005 21:14:14 -0400
> > Subject: RE: [Colonial Numismatics] Re: Punch-Linking & the 21st
> Century
> >
> > John, I do not believe something due to some expert, just
because I > want
> > to. I believe what I do based upon my own independant analysis
of the
> > COINS, and proof offered, analyzed and accepted, by me. That
some of > the
> > so-called Machin's, or Tory, or Atlee 1/2d, do not fit, makes
sense to > me,
> > but NOT due to your broken A punch theory. Theories are great
UNTIL > they
> > become LAWS without substantiation. Remember that Einstien's
Theory of
> > Relativity is still a theory, as it has yet to be proved. So
too, is > your
> > theory. David
> >
> > Original Message:
> > -----------------
> > From: John Lorenzo johnmenc@o...
> > Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 00:31:49 -0000
> > To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [Colonial Numismatics] Re: Punch-Linking & the 21st
Century
> >
> >
> > <html><body>
> >
> >
> > <tt>
> > Until we can develop sound scientfic analyses we can only hold
on to > 
> > our older attribution techniques such as punch linking initially
 
> > created by Breen and his school of followers ... perhaps this
Peter > 
> > Northover article involving 18th Century copper (the first of
its 
> > kind) will allow us to ease the grip a bit we have on punch
linking > 
> > and shows us a new road to the answers we would all like to see
and > 
> > BELIEVE. 
> > In the meantime I guess this 1747 GII is staying put due to some
 
> > nebulous style created by two or three so-called experts. It
seems 
> > the need to belong to a group of individuals with similar
interests > 
> > can sometimes "cloud" our thoughts on what is valid or invalid
or 
> > being nothing more than just passed down the line simply hearsay?
 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com, "palmers4@e..." 
> > <palmers4@e...> wrote: 
> > > Byron, All I can say is that you have more patience than I.
 
> > JPL's "Broken A 
> > > Punch" theory, imho, was all wet when he stated it at C4, then
 
> > again at 
> > > COAC. He will never admit that it MIGHT be wrong. I guess
because > 
> > he gave 
> > > the presentation at COAC, it MUST be right???? Maybe, maybe
not. I > 
> > don't 
> > > buy it, didn't at the time, and I told him so. I may be
convinced > 
> > at some 
> > > future point, but not yet. Not enough PROOF. Supposition, and
as 
> > you say 
> > > skewing of the facts to fit a conclusion already made before
the 
> > facts were 
> > > in, is NOT good science. But then, I am probably too stupid to
 
> > understand. 
> > > It absolutely amazes me that there might have been 10, 20 or
even > 
> > 100 die 
> > > sinkers running around out there in colonial times with an A
punch > 
> > from the 
> > > same botched matrix, all making coins for different
operations. 
> > Boggles the 
> > > mind, don't it? Funny, that not even one of these myriad of
die 
> > sinkers 
> > > decided to get a NEW A punch, or expect that the supplier give
 
> > them a new 
> > > one that was good? Oh well, I just have to wallow in my
stupidity, > 
> > I guess. 
> > > David 
> > > 
> > > Original Message: 
> > > ----------------- 
> > > From: Byron Weston bkweston@v... 
> > > Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 19:43:30 -0000 
> > > To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com 
> > > Subject: [Colonial Numismatics] Re: Punch-Linking & the 21st
 
> > Century 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > <html><body> 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > <tt> 
> > > REPLIES WITHIN... 
> > > 
> > > --- In colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com, "John Lorenzo" 
> > <johnmenc@o...> 
> > > wrote: 
> > > 
> > > The current concept advanced by Peter Gaspar 
> > > > states that die sinkers of the period (THIS IS WHERE YOU'VE
> 
> > > VIOLATED THE SPACE/TIME CONTINUUM, ESSENTIALLY THROWING
UNRELATED > 
> > 
> > > FACTS TOGETHER THAT FIT YOUR THEORY OR CONCLUSION.) had the
 
> > > >availability of identical punches raised from a common matrix
and > 
> > 
> > > >did not necessarily make their own individual tools.
Therefore, 
> > many 
> > > >die makers could have had access to the same style of
defective 
> > 
> > > >punch obtained from a common source. Consequently any punch,
> 
> > > >defective or whole, cannot be used as a marker to identify
any 
> > 
> > > >particular mint or craftsman. 
> > > 
> > > The writer also shows that the broken "A" letter punch
 
> > > > employed in many New Jersey coppers further deteriorated
with 
> > 
> > > > continued use over time as determined by die emission
sequence. > 
> > Of 
> > > > great significance is that the broken "A" seen on certain
 
> > > > Connecticut coppers is of a different style than that found
on 
> > New 
> > > > Jersey coppers and in any case the two broken "A" punches
are 
> > not 
> > > > the products of the same defective matrix. There is a
systematic > 
> > 
> > > > description of all state coppers which contain broken
letters. 
> > It 
> > > is 
> > > > concluded that punch linking of any sort is only of
secondary 
> > value 
> > > > in attributing coppers to a specific mint or craftsman and
other > 
> > 
> > > > factors are of more importance in making that >
determination. 
> > > (YOU'VE ONLY REPEATED HODDER'S CONCLUSION BASED ON THE SAME
FALSE > 
> > 
> > > ASSUMPTIONS.) 
> > > 
> > > > Each coinage operation responsible for creating a specific
group > 
> > of 
> > > > halfpence also created their own letter and numeral punches.
> 
> > > > Punchlink studies are a viable tool in studying
relationships 
> > 
> > > > between coppers from the Confederation period. 
> > > > 
> > > > However punch link studies can be fooled by striking
pressure 
> > and 
> > > > the softness of the flan when the coin is struck as the same
 
> > punch 
> > > > can take on different shapes and design elements. 
> > > (I WONDER WHERE YOU'VE HEARD THIS BEFORE, I'VE BEEN SAYING IT
FOR > 
> > 
> > > YEARS.) 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > > The idea that an Evasion copper displayed a broken "A"
letter 
> > punch 
> > > > is a perplexing problem, the problem of many 1776
counterfeits 
> > 
> > > being 
> > > > similar to 76A is annoying situation to some? 
> > collectors,validity 
> > > of 
> > > > V.14-84A by one noted collector keeps coming up in
discussions, > 
> > and 
> > > > also the "conflicted varieities" of the 86's and
77A. 
> > > (I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOU'RE GETTING AT. THE SITUATION ISN'T
NEARLY > 
> > AS 
> > > ANNOYING AS THE ARGUMENT YOU'RE TRYING TO MAKE LINKING
EVASIONS 
> > WITH 
> > > ATLEE/MACHIN'S COUNTERFEIT HALFPENCE.) 
> > > > 
> > > > THe high probability of the 1787/1788 State Copper reverse
sub- 
> > 
> > > > family may have a distinct microstructure than these other
 
> > > varieites 
> > > > on Vlack Plate 1 which are hanging on by a THIN THREAD!
 
> > > 
> > > (I EXPLAINED TO YOU IN FOUR PAGES OF REVIEW NOTES, >7 YEARS
AGO, 
> > WHY 
> > > METALURGICAL TESTING WOULD BE MEANINGLESS AND HOW IT MIGHT BE
 
> > SCEWED 
> > > TO GET THE RESULTS THAT YOU WANTED. LET IT GO.) 
> > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Its of my opinion that there may be a distinct possibility
that > 
> > the 
> > > > microstructure of coins made at Machin's Mills made be of a
> 
> > > > signature quality that will take us forward in the direction
we > 
> > 
> > > need 
> > > > to go to unravel this annoying series of counterfeits
developed > 
> > by 
> > > > numismatists from the DARK AGES with no scientific
backgrounds! 
> > 
> > > (THAT MUST BE EVERYONE BUT YOU, RIGHT?) 
> > > > 
> > > > Stick around .... 
> > > 
> > > (I'VE STUCK AROUND FOR NEARLY A DECADE NOW, JOHN, PUBLISH OR
GET 
> > OFF 
> > > THE POT.) 
> > > > 
> > > > John Lorenzo 
> > > 
> > > (I WILL NO LONGER RESPOND TO POSTS ON THIS SUBJECT IN THIS
GROUP. > 
> > I 
> > > CHALLENGE YOU PUBLISH YOUR THEORIES THOUGH SO THAT I MIGHT
COMMENT > 
> > ON 
> > > THEM IN A LIKE MANNER. I'M STILL WAITING.) 
> > > (BYRON) 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > </tt> 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > >  
> > > 
> > > 
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<DIV>Kleenk!! Outta Stalag 13!!! You are kidding John??? Where is the connection!!???? I agree that things can be studied, but this is ludicris.....IMHO John Lorenzo <johnmenc@optonline.net> wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid"><TT>If you look down this thread there is some annoying chatter of someone trying to die link Atkins 64 with a New York City struck halfpence ... its most bothersome ... --- In colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com, johnwlouis@a... wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > From: JohnWLouis > To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thu, 05 May 2005 22:13:25 -0400 > Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Re: Punch-Linking & the 21st Century > > > Hi Andy! Thanks for the reply and thanks for your opinions and insights. They are appreciated! > I would however like to make a few comments of my own.....if you don't mind. Thanks again! > JWL > PS I will attempt to reply to your post in red/bold. > > -----Original
Message----- > From: Andrew Grenci <agrenci@m...> > To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wed, 4 May 2005 23:28:01 -0400 > Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Re: Punch-Linking & the 21st Century > > > Although I seldom post to this list, I'll venture to forge a link between "scientific theories" and theories about the coins we collect. > > It is often said about evolution that "it is nothing more than a theory." This, I think, ignores that it is no small feat for an idea, a hypothesis, to become a scientific theory. I agree. Any theory accepted by scientists must account for as much known evidence as possible. Yes, I agree. When evidence is discovered that throws doubt upon the theory, or a new hypothesis is proposed that better accounts for known evidence, scientists will ruthlessly alter or abandon the pa

URL di origine

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/colonial-coins/info

Data di pubblicazione

2005-05-06

Volume

Punch-Linking & the 21st Century Pubblico Deposited

Fwd

[Colonial Numismatics] Re

Re

Le relazioni

Autore NNP