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- From njraywms@optonline.net Thu May 16 10:25:35 2002
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Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 13:26:59 -0400
Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Re: Ct Copper help
To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
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References: <ac0o7p+73cr@eGroups.com>
From: Ray Williams <njraywms@optonline.net>
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Hi Neil,
On first looking at the coin, it looked like a "ETLIB" variety. The
Letters were evenly spaced and if I had noticed the ornament between ET and
LIB, I must have just thought it a planchet defect. Now I see it as an
ornament and it makes more sense. I think it would be easier in the future
just to buy CT Coppers that have the die variety painted on the obverse or
the edge... :-). I think that as I look at more CT's, I'll get used to
what to look for. I liked your tip #13! Your advice in determining
attribution is great! I've printed a copy and it is now resting in my
Miller book in the section with the ornament charts.
Thanks,
Ray
----- Original Message -----
From: "nrothschild1" <nrothschild@comcast.net>
To: <colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2002 12:54 PM
Subject: [Colonial Numismatics] Re: Ct Copper help
> Ray,
>
> What threw you off? Your reverse has a clear hyphen between ET and
> LIB.
>
> The punctuation (hyphens/dots/etc) between ET and LIB are critical
> for CT attributions. More problematic for worn specimens (unlike
> yours, which is very nice).
>
> Here are a few tips that help me:
>
> 1) If the obverse is 33, start with the reverse. I usually do the
> reverse first anyway, but that is a personal preference.
>
> 2) If worn, assume punctuation may be missing, so make a list of
> anything that COULD be your coin- if your coin has one cinquefoil
> after INDE, the actual die might have two, with one missing. Same
> with the ET-LIB punctuation and ETLIB/ETLIR. With a little practice
> you can tell if the coin is worn enough to miss a device. This may
> not eliminate much, but it's better than looking at everything.
>
> 3) I also always start with the Miller type list, as you did.
>
> 4) As mentioned, die breaks are critical. s.1, for instance is
> always broken to the left of the face to the rim. It's a dead ringer
> if you spend a few thousand hours with he series <s>
>
> 5) Study the space between ET and LIB VERY CAREFULLY. If there is
> ANYTHING disturbing the field, assume it is punctuation and try to
> find something that fits. Some of the hyphens will look like dots,
> so don't take Miller too literally. There is not much difference
> between a short hyphen and a dot, especially if there is a weak
> strike or wear or other disturbances in the field.
>
> 6) Learn the difference between Jarvis letters and original Company
> of Coining Coppers letters. The Jarvis letters are smaller and
> distinctive. That immediately narrows the search if you know which
> types are from each mint. Obverses 16-29 are generally CCC, 32, 33
> are Jarvis. Look at Taylor and you should see the difference.
> Jarvis letters are the same as Fugios. Of course, Jarvis used
> cinquefoils and CCC did not....
>
> 7) There are ETLIB and ETLIR legends. Each ETLIR usually has a
> sister type with ETLIB, all else is the same. There is a continuum
> between a fully formed B and a fully formed R. A fully formed B and
> a fully formed R is usually obvious, but there are some dies that I
> think (IMHO) could be classed as ETLIB or ETLIR. So if still
> stumped, check the ETLIRs if you assumed ETLIB, etc. In the case of
> certain ETLIBs, the bottom crossbar of the B is very delicate and in
> VG or lower grade, can be easily missed or completely missing. So if
> you think it is an ETLIR, and it is low grade, always check the
> sister ETLIB type if you can't find an ETLIR to match. I have seen
> ETLIR's that I think should have been classed as ETLIB, but I suspect
> Miller might not have seen a high enough grade to see the delicate
> crossbar.
>
> 8) For 1786, forget it. These were all hubbed and it's like doing
> Morgan VAM varieties. Very diffcult unless the coin is high grade
> and well struck.
>
> 9) For 1787 reverses the BRANCH is the key, especially for Z
> reverses. It is almost always well struck and wears well. Every
> branch on every die is unique, as they were all constructed with tiny
> punches. Same for 1786, by the way. Same for every CT die, for that
> matter.
>
> 10) 98% of unattributed 1787 CT's are one of maybe 30 varieties.
> And most unattributed Ct's are 1787. When I am doing tough types,
> like 33 and/or Z, I search in rarity sequence (but I do it with a
> computer.. tougher by hand).
>
> 11) If you want to spend more time than you really want to put into
> this (since it is not one of your specialties) you could do this
>
> a. Get your Taylor, EAC 75, Perkins, Oechsner, Hessberg, Stacks
> 6/94, maybe a few others.... together.
>
> b) Decide which has the best overall photos for attibution-
> Taylor or Perkins. Most people prefer Taylor since he had more high
> cencus pieces. That is your "master" guide.
>
> c) Look at each variety in (Taylor/Perkins, the master catalog)
> and where the variety is weak or difficult to use, check the other
> catalogs. If there is a better specimen in one of the other sales,
> make a note in your master catalog (i.e. "EAC 75:999 is best pix").
>
> 12. Re-read tip #9. It is THE KEY.
>
> 13) Upload photo to this group. It worked the last time you tried!
>
> Hope this helps a little....
>
> Neil
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In colonial-coins@y..., Ray Williams <njraywms@o...> wrote:
> > Could any of you CT guys out there help me with attribution? I
> was thinking this is a 33 obverse and a T reverse but I'm having
> difficulty matching it. I just got this off ebay from Don V as a Red
> Book type coin.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Ray
>
>
>
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