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- From fuldy2000@yahoo.com Sat May 18 06:24:20 2002
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Date: Sat, 18 May 2002 06:24:20 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Re: Ct Copper help
To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
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From: George FUld <fuldy2000@yahoo.com>
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--- Ray Williams <njraywms@optonline.net> wrote:
> Morris,
> If we started listing the rarity 1 1787 CT's,
> then the R-2's and R-3's
> until we reached 30 varieties, I'm sure that would
> be pretty close to the 30
> varieties Neil referred to in Tip # 10. I don't use
> Tip # 13 until I've put
> some time into attributing. I do have 3 low grade
> CT's I've had problems
> attributing. I bought them because I thought it
> would be fun trying to
> attribute them. It's not fun anymore. I'll
> probably bring them to Boston
> because I'd be embarassed to post such ugly coins
> for help. The tips below
> may be taken for granted by seasoned CT collectors,
> along with Rob's
> comments about the logic Miller used behind his
> attribution system, BUT this
> is great new info for me and I may attempt those
> three CT's again before
> Boston.
>
> Ray
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Morris Hankins" <joshalso2000@yahoo.com>
> To: <colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2002 6:42 PM
> Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Re: Ct Copper
> help
>
>
> > Neil - superb set of tips even for the "experts".
> >
> > Would love for your to expand on Tip #10
> specifically
> > the thirty varieties that make up the 98%.
> >
> > I am sure that a lot of people are giving thanks
> for
> > these tips.
> >
> > Morris
> >
> >
> > --- nrothschild1 <nrothschild@comcast.net> wrote:
> > > Ray,
> > >
> > > What threw you off? Your reverse has a clear
> hyphen
> > > between ET and
> > > LIB.
> > >
> > > The punctuation (hyphens/dots/etc) between ET
> and
> > > LIB are critical
> > > for CT attributions. More problematic for worn
> > > specimens (unlike
> > > yours, which is very nice).
> > >
> > > Here are a few tips that help me:
> > >
> > > 1) If the obverse is 33, start with the
> reverse. I
> > > usually do the
> > > reverse first anyway, but that is a personal
> > > preference.
> > >
> > > 2) If worn, assume punctuation may be missing,
> so
> > > make a list of
> > > anything that COULD be your coin- if your coin
> has
> > > one cinquefoil
> > > after INDE, the actual die might have two, with
> one
> > > missing. Same
> > > with the ET-LIB punctuation and ETLIB/ETLIR.
> With
> > > a little practice
> > > you can tell if the coin is worn enough to miss
> a
> > > device. This may
> > > not eliminate much, but it's better than looking
> at
> > > everything.
> > >
> > > 3) I also always start with the Miller type
> list,
> > > as you did.
> > >
> > > 4) As mentioned, die breaks are critical. s.1,
> for
> > > instance is
> > > always broken to the left of the face to the
> rim.
> > > It's a dead ringer
> > > if you spend a few thousand hours with he series
> <s>
> > >
> > > 5) Study the space between ET and LIB VERY
> > > CAREFULLY. If there is
> > > ANYTHING disturbing the field, assume it is
> > > punctuation and try to
> > > find something that fits. Some of the hyphens
> will
> > > look like dots,
> > > so don't take Miller too literally. There is
> not
> > > much difference
> > > between a short hyphen and a dot, especially if
> > > there is a weak
> > > strike or wear or other disturbances in the
> field.
> > >
> > > 6) Learn the difference between Jarvis letters
> and
> > > original Company
> > > of Coining Coppers letters. The Jarvis letters
> are
> > > smaller and
> > > distinctive. That immediately narrows the
> search if
> > > you know which
> > > types are from each mint. Obverses 16-29 are
> > > generally CCC, 32, 33
> > > are Jarvis. Look at Taylor and you should see
> the
> > > difference.
> > > Jarvis letters are the same as Fugios. Of
> course,
> > > Jarvis used
> > > cinquefoils and CCC did not....
> > >
> > > 7) There are ETLIB and ETLIR legends. Each
> ETLIR
> > > usually has a
> > > sister type with ETLIB, all else is the same.
> There
> > > is a continuum
> > > between a fully formed B and a fully formed R.
> A
> > > fully formed B and
> > > a fully formed R is usually obvious, but there
> are
> > > some dies that I
> > > think (IMHO) could be classed as ETLIB or ETLIR.
> So
> > > if still
> > > stumped, check the ETLIRs if you assumed ETLIB,
> etc.
> > > In the case of
> > > certain ETLIBs, the bottom crossbar of the B is
> very
> > > delicate and in
> > > VG or lower grade, can be easily missed or
> > > completely missing. So if
> > > you think it is an ETLIR, and it is low grade,
> > > always check the
> > > sister ETLIB type if you can't find an ETLIR to
> > > match. I have seen
> > > ETLIR's that I think should have been classed as
> > > ETLIB, but I suspect
> > > Miller might not have seen a high enough grade
> to
> > > see the delicate
> > > crossbar.
> > >
> > > 8) For 1786, forget it. These were all hubbed
> and
> > > it's like doing
> > > Morgan VAM varieties. Very diffcult unless the
> coin
> > > is high grade
> > > and well struck.
> > >
> > > 9) For 1787 reverses the BRANCH is the key,
> > > especially for Z
> > > reverses. It is almost always well struck and
> wears
> > > well. Every
> > > branch on every die is unique, as they were all
> > > constructed with tiny
> > > punches. Same for 1786, by the way. Same for
> every
> > > CT die, for that
> > > matter.
> > >
> > > 10) 98% of unattributed 1787 CT's are one of
> maybe
> > > 30 varieties.
> > > And most unattributed Ct's are 1787. When I am
> > > doing tough types,
> > > like 33 and/or Z, I search in rarity sequence
> (but I
> > > do it with a
> > > computer.. tougher by hand).
> > >
> > > 11) If you want to spend more time than you
> really
>
Dear Ray:
If you want to see Barnsley's work, you can borrow
from Jim Spillman in Huntsville.
George=== message truncated ===
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