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- From rogermoore435@yahoo.com Thu Dec 12 18:44:53 2002
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Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 17:42:52 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Re: 4-C & 77-dd
To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
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From: Roger Moore <rogermoore435@yahoo.com>
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Ray, I am one of the NJ die variety collectors that
thinks all of the 77-78 series of die varities should
be called die states of the 77 variety. Having
written the most complete paper about Maris yet (CNL),
I also question why Maris included the 77 and 78 as
separate varieties. In a paper I am writing now
concerning the Nagy plates which were made after the
1881 original plate, in spite of Maris adding three
new varieties of NJs, he still retained the 77 and 78
as seperate varieties. I cannot make sense of this.
I think (personally) the 77 1/2 designation is a self
serving mechanism produced by one individual to get
New Jersey collectors to pay big bucks for what is
simply a mid state die variety. I am glad to see that
most NJ collectors are spurning this artificial
division and accepting the wisdom of the C-4 NJ
symposium many years ago of designating all 77-78s as
77. Roger M.
--- Ray Williams <njraywms@optonline.net> wrote:
> Hi Roger!
> I agree - there are very few of us that collect
> NJ's by die state but
> there are several varieties we look for in certain
> die states - the 77
> obverse, the 16 obverse with tongue but without the
> die chip at the rim, the
> scarcer U reveres die state and such. But the die
> states of the 77 are the
> most widely publicized. I wonder why Maris was not
> aware of the 77 and 78
> being die states? I would guess that he was aware
> BUT was in need of one
> more variety to make his plate symmetrical, and he
> didn't count on us
> scrutinizing colonials 120 years later. That's just
> my gut feeling - I have
> no information to back that up.
> Thinking about questioning the minds of
> researchers, I just received my
> Coin World and Dan Freidus has an excellent article
> about the Ryder 34 VT
> that was just auctioned. I own a couple type VT's
> (no R-34) and I have not
> done the reading on the series that I should do...
> but Dan brought up the
> point that Crosby plated a Ryder 34 BUT Ryder did
> not include the 34 in his
> original work on VT's... Dan's articles under the
> Colonial Americana column
> are my favorites. I've saved every one and I'm
> missing 2 or 3 of Mike
> Hodder's articles from the original series. If
> anyone can help me with
> copies of Mike's Colonial Americana, that would be a
> great Christmas gift
> for me...
>
> Ray
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <rogersiboni@aol.com>
> To: <colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2002 10:02 AM
> Subject: [Colonial Numismatics] Re: 4-C & 77-dd
>
>
> > Ray,
> >
> > What I always found interesting is that while a 77
> 1/2-dd has lost
> > its appeal as a rarity, most NJ collectors still
> uniquely collect
> > this variety by die state and the 77 1/2-dd is
> still tough to find.
> >
> > Roger S.
> >
> > --- In colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com, Ray
> Williams <njraywms@o...>
> > wrote:
> > > [Colonial Numismatics] Re: 4-C & 77-ddHi Dan!
> > > I agree with you about the description of
> die marriages vs die
> > states, but the important thing is that we
> communicate accurately.
> > If the Maris 77 designation is used, it can be
> assumed that it is the
> > EDS. If there is another die state, we all must
> agree to use either
> > Maris 77 MDS or Maris 77 1/2 for the middle die
> state and Maris 77
> > LDS or Maris 78 for the late die state. At this
> point in time, most
> > colonial collectors are familiar with both
> nomenclatures. Time will
> > determine which will prevail. Again, the most
> important thing is to
> > make it clear which die state we're talking about.
> > >
> > > Ray W
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Dan Freidus
> > > To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 2:21 PM
> > > Subject: [Colonial Numismatics] Re: 4-C &
> 77-dd
> > >
> > >
> > > Yes, I agree that these are guesstimates, but
> usually you and Tom
> > rarely differ by 2 notches. Thanks for verifying
> that it is because
> > the 2 of you were guesstimating different
> populatins rather than
> > having different ideas about the same population.
> > >
> > >
> > > Dan
> > >
> > >
> > > P.S. For the record, my feeling is that die
> varieties are
> > usually best used to refer to a specific die
> marriage rather than
> > different die states. Significant recutting such
> as seen in some
> > Mass silver is the exception.
> > >
> > >
> > > At 1:44 PM +0000 12/9/02, mike468hodder
> <mhodder@t... wrote:
> > > My O'Donnell rating of 77-dd as R-4 was
> confined only to the
> > EDS (I
> > > didn't like the delisting and said so at the
> time).
> > >
> > > At the R-4 and lower levels, especially R-2
> and R-1, rarity
> > > estimates are really guesstimates anyway,
> aren't they?
> > >
> > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email
> to:
> > > colonial-coins-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
> Yahoo! Terms of
> > Service.
> >
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > colonial-coins-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
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