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- From rogersiboni@aol.com Fri Dec 13 05:32:26 2002
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Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 13:32:25 -0000
To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Colonial Numismatics] Re: 4-C & 77-dd
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From: "mantoloking2002 <rogersiboni@aol.com>" <rogersiboni@aol.com>
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Roger,
So my question is do you have a 77 1/2-dd and if not, if one came
your way, would you include it in your collection. My point is that
if it is collectible ( for whatever reason ), that should impact
value even if it is a die state rather than a variety.
Roger S.
--- In colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com, Roger Moore
<rogermoore435@y...> wrote:
> Ray, I am one of the NJ die variety collectors that
> thinks all of the 77-78 series of die varities should
> be called die states of the 77 variety. Having
> written the most complete paper about Maris yet (CNL),
> I also question why Maris included the 77 and 78 as
> separate varieties. In a paper I am writing now
> concerning the Nagy plates which were made after the
> 1881 original plate, in spite of Maris adding three
> new varieties of NJs, he still retained the 77 and 78
> as seperate varieties. I cannot make sense of this.
> I think (personally) the 77 1/2 designation is a self
> serving mechanism produced by one individual to get
> New Jersey collectors to pay big bucks for what is
> simply a mid state die variety. I am glad to see that
> most NJ collectors are spurning this artificial
> division and accepting the wisdom of the C-4 NJ
> symposium many years ago of designating all 77-78s as
> 77. Roger M.
>
>
> --- Ray Williams <njraywms@o...> wrote:
> > Hi Roger!
> > I agree - there are very few of us that collect
> > NJ's by die state but
> > there are several varieties we look for in certain
> > die states - the 77
> > obverse, the 16 obverse with tongue but without the
> > die chip at the rim, the
> > scarcer U reveres die state and such. But the die
> > states of the 77 are the
> > most widely publicized. I wonder why Maris was not
> > aware of the 77 and 78
> > being die states? I would guess that he was aware
> > BUT was in need of one
> > more variety to make his plate symmetrical, and he
> > didn't count on us
> > scrutinizing colonials 120 years later. That's just
> > my gut feeling - I have
> > no information to back that up.
> > Thinking about questioning the minds of
> > researchers, I just received my
> > Coin World and Dan Freidus has an excellent article
> > about the Ryder 34 VT
> > that was just auctioned. I own a couple type VT's
> > (no R-34) and I have not
> > done the reading on the series that I should do...
> > but Dan brought up the
> > point that Crosby plated a Ryder 34 BUT Ryder did
> > not include the 34 in his
> > original work on VT's... Dan's articles under the
> > Colonial Americana column
> > are my favorites. I've saved every one and I'm
> > missing 2 or 3 of Mike
> > Hodder's articles from the original series. If
> > anyone can help me with
> > copies of Mike's Colonial Americana, that would be a
> > great Christmas gift
> > for me...
> >
> > Ray
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: <rogersiboni@a...>
> > To: <colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2002 10:02 AM
> > Subject: [Colonial Numismatics] Re: 4-C & 77-dd
> >
> >
> > > Ray,
> > >
> > > What I always found interesting is that while a 77
> > 1/2-dd has lost
> > > its appeal as a rarity, most NJ collectors still
> > uniquely collect
> > > this variety by die state and the 77 1/2-dd is
> > still tough to find.
> > >
> > > Roger S.
> > >
> > > --- In colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com, Ray
> > Williams <njraywms@o...>
> > > wrote:
> > > > [Colonial Numismatics] Re: 4-C & 77-ddHi Dan!
> > > > I agree with you about the description of
> > die marriages vs die
> > > states, but the important thing is that we
> > communicate accurately.
> > > If the Maris 77 designation is used, it can be
> > assumed that it is the
> > > EDS. If there is another die state, we all must
> > agree to use either
> > > Maris 77 MDS or Maris 77 1/2 for the middle die
> > state and Maris 77
> > > LDS or Maris 78 for the late die state. At this
> > point in time, most
> > > colonial collectors are familiar with both
> > nomenclatures. Time will
> > > determine which will prevail. Again, the most
> > important thing is to
> > > make it clear which die state we're talking about.
> > > >
> > > > Ray W
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: Dan Freidus
> > > > To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 2:21 PM
> > > > Subject: [Colonial Numismatics] Re: 4-C &
> > 77-dd
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Yes, I agree that these are guesstimates, but
> > usually you and Tom
> > > rarely differ by 2 notches. Thanks for verifying
> > that it is because
> > > the 2 of you were guesstimating different
> > populatins rather than
> > > having different ideas about the same population.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Dan
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > P.S. For the record, my feeling is that die
> > varieties are
> > > usually best used to refer to a specific die
> > marriage rather than
> > > different die states. Significant recutting such
> > as seen in some
> > > Mass silver is the exception.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > At 1:44 PM +0000 12/9/02, mike468hodder
> > <mhodder@t... wrote:
> > > > My O'Donnell rating of 77-dd as R-4 was
> > confined only to the
> > > EDS (I
> > > > didn't like the delisting and said so at the
> > time).
> > > >
> > > > At the R-4 and lower levels, especially R-2
> > and R-1, rarity
> > > > estimates are really guesstimates anyway,
> > aren't they?
> > > >
> > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email
> > to:
> > > > colonial-coins-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
> > Yahoo! Terms of
> > > Service.
> > >
> > >
> > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > > colonial-coins-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
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> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
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