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Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 10:58:32 -0500
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Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Re: Net Grading......
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From: Syd Martin <sfmartin@corp.sytexinc.com>
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In mho, condition census is an artifice presented simply to create
apparent value. For example, those who use the top ten for condition
census are basically saying that any R7 or higher is condition census.
Those who use 15 are saying R6+ and up are cc coins. When one gets down
to an R3 or so, what is the real meaning of CC as there are probably
significant numbers in top grades. I am always amazed at the number of
CC coins in every auction. Clearly it's a matter of opinion; however,
when we get together for whist matches and the like, the thing we look
for and discuss is eye-appeal and overall desireablility -- we rarely if
ever talk about technical grade. I'll take the gorgeous VF over an ugly
EF any day. Syd
"mantoloking2002 " wrote:
> All,
>
> Well I suspected we would have some contraversy over this question.
> In the end, both methods of grading should theoretically be able to
> get you to the right place in that net grading is simply the process
> of technical grading and then subtracting points for all the
> deficiencies that our members agree should be noted when describing
> coins. Obviously, the contraversey comes up in deciding what
> deficiencies to describe and how many points to subtract for such
> deficiencies. Even the best Colonial specialists and catalogers tend
> to differ on what deficiencies (or attribues) they highlight when
> describing a coin. At minimum, I think strike ( including die state),
> color, surface hardness, centering, scratches and marks, rims and
> gloss or luster should be commented on.
>
> A word about strike. Several people have commented that Colonials are
> challenging to grade because of differing strikes. I totally agree,
> but one of the things that I always like to hear about and look for
> is quality of strike for the variety. This requires getting to know a
> variety, but that is one of the many enjoyable things about the hobby.
>
> Now, just to wade into the muck once again. How do people feel about
> grading when it comes to condition census reporting. As we all know,
> many varieties may start with an EF being the finest known speciman.
> I have seen some God awful-Coyote Ugly EFs and some gorgeous honey
> brown-problem free VFs. Which should take the number 6 spot in the
> census?
>
> Roger
>
> --- In colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com, Ray Williams <njraywms@o...>
> wrote:
> > Hi All!
> > Now it's time for my two NJ's worth... I am most concerned
> about the
> > problems with net grading. I look at some of the factions in EAC
> with
> > respect to grading and I NEVER want that to happen to C4. I'd hate
> to see
> > members get red-in -the-face mad, hollering with arms flailing, all
> over a
> > disagreement over a point or two in grade. Admitedly, a point or
> two for
> > some of those large cents could represent vast amounts of $, but
> that's what
> > it's come to. If you have different respected members of EAC put a
> > numerical grade on a coin, the numbers will usually differ. Now
> before I
> > get C4'ers thinking we're better, we also have differences in
> grading. If
> > you compare the grades given coins by some catalogers, dealers and
> on FPL,
> > they do vary but we get used to how they grade. There's one dealer
> thatI
> > think grades high by a full grade, another by half a grade and
> another from
> > Albany that I think is right on. Even if I know a cataloger and
> how he
> > grades, a consignor may have made arrangements that he would only
> consign if
> > his grades were placed on each lot... I don't know that for a fact
> but I'd
> > think it possible. I hope we can always share our coins with each
> other and
> > not get into arguments about whose is the better...
> > That being said. I think it is difficult to grade by pictures
> on posts.
> > It would be interesting and fun but not definitive. If at EAC at
> the
> > colonial happening, members brought all their VA coins, then
> possibly a
> > concensus could be obtained as to which coins would be
> representative for
> > their respective grades, and then photographed. BUT,
> a "photograde" for
> > colonials would be a monumental task - it would really need to be
> done for
> > each and every variety due to the varied differences in dies and
> striking
> > pressure. BUT that would only be for the technical grade, then
> you'd need
> > to take into account the problems (and it's a rare colonial that
> doesn't
> > have any problems worth mentioning).
> > And in conclusion (my exit line) I think that the accurate
> description
> > after the technical grade is what we need to assess on our own what
> the coin
> > is worth. And pictures do help.
> >
> > Ray W
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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>
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In mho, condition census is an artifice presented simply to create apparent
value. For example, those who use the top ten for condition census
are basically saying that any R7 or higher is condition census. Those
who use 15 are saying R6+ and up are cc coins. When one gets down
to an R3 or so, what is the real meaning of CC as there are probably significant
numbers in top grades. I am always amazed at the number of CC coins
in every auction. Clearly it's a matter of opinion; however, when
we get together for whist matches and the like, the thing we look for and
discuss is eye-appeal and overall desireablility -- we rarely if ever talk
about technical grade. I'll take the gorgeous VF over an ugly EF
any day. Syd
<p>"mantoloking2002 <rogersiboni@aol.com>" wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE> <tt>All,</tt>
<p><tt>Well I suspected we would have some contraversy over this question.</tt>
<br><tt>In the end, both methods of grading should theoretically be able
to</tt>
<br><tt>get you to the right place in that net grading is simply the process</tt>
<br><tt>of technical grading and then subtracting points for all the</tt>
<br><tt>deficiencies that our members agree should be noted when describing</tt>
<br><tt>coins. Obviously, the contraversey comes up in deciding what</tt>
<br><tt>deficiencies to describe and how many points to subtract for such</tt>
<br><tt>deficiencies. Even the best Colonial specialists and catalogers
tend</tt>
<br><tt>to differ on what deficiencies (or attribues) they highlight when</tt>
<br><tt>describing a coin. At minimum, I think strike ( including die state),</tt>
<br><tt>color, surface hardness, centering, scratches and marks, rims and</tt>
<br><tt>gloss or luster should be commented on.</tt>
<p><tt>A word about strike. Several people have commented that Colonials
are</tt>
<br><tt>challenging to grade because of differing strikes. I totally agree,</tt>
<br><tt>but one of the things that I always like to hear about and look
for</tt>
<br><tt>is quality of strike for the variety. This requires getting to
know a</tt>
<br><tt>variety, but that is one of the many enjoyable things about the
hobby.</tt>
<p><tt>Now, just to wade into the muck once again. How do people feel about</tt>
<br><tt>grading when it comes to condition census reporting. As we all
know,</tt>
<br><tt>many varieties may start with an EF being the finest known speciman.</tt>
<br><tt>I have seen some God awful-Coyote Ugly EFs and some gorgeous honey</tt>
<br><tt>brown-problem free VFs. Which should take the number 6 spot in
the</tt>
<br><tt>census?</tt>
<p><tt>Roger</tt>
<p><tt>--- In colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com, Ray Williams <njraywms@o...></tt>
<br><tt>wrote:</tt>
<br><tt>> Hi All!</tt>
<br><tt>> Now it's time for my two NJ's worth...
I am most concerned</tt>
<br><tt>about the</tt>
<br><tt>> problems with net grading. I look at some of the factions
in EAC</tt>
<br><tt>with</tt>
<br><tt>> respect to grading and I NEVER want that to happen to C4.
I'd hate</tt>
<br><tt>to see</tt>
<br><tt>> members get red-in -the-face mad, hollering with arms flailing,
all</tt>
<br><tt>over a</tt>
<br><tt>> disagreement over a point or two in grade. Admitedly, a
point or</tt>
<br><tt>two for</tt>
<br><tt>> some of those large cents could represent vast amounts of $,
but</tt>
<br><tt>that's what</tt>
<br><tt>> it's come to. If you have different respected members of
EAC put a</tt>
<br><tt>> numerical grade on a coin, the numbers will usually differ.
Now</tt>
<br><tt>before I</tt>
<br><tt>> get C4'ers thinking we're better, we also have differences in</tt>
<br><tt>grading. If</tt>
<br><tt>> you compare the grades given coins by some catalogers, dealers
and</tt>
<br><tt>on FPL,</tt>
<br><tt>> they do vary but we get used to how they grade. There's
one dealer</tt>
<br><tt>thatI</tt>
<br><tt>> think grades high by a full grade, another by half a grade and</tt>
<br><tt>another from</tt>
<br><tt>> Albany that I think is right on. Even if I know a cataloger
and</tt>
<br><tt>how he</tt>
<br><tt>> grades, a consignor may have made arrangements that he would
only</tt>
<br><tt>consign if</tt>
<br><tt>> his grades were placed on each lot... I don't know that
for a fact</tt>
<br><tt>but I'd</tt>
<br><tt>> think it possible. I hope we can always share our coins
with each</tt>
<br><tt>other and</tt>
<br><tt>> not get into arguments about whose is the better...</tt>
<br><tt>> That being said. I think it is
difficult to grade by pictures</tt>
<br><tt>on posts.</tt>
<br><tt>> It would be interesting and fun but not definitive. If
at EAC at</tt>
<br><tt>the</tt>
<br><tt>> colonial happening, members brought all their VA coins, then</tt>
<br><tt>possibly a</tt>
<br><tt>> concensus could be obtained as to which coins would be</tt>
<br><tt>representative for</tt>
<br><tt>> their respective grades, and then photographed. BUT,</tt>
<br><tt>a "photograde" for</tt>
<br><tt>> colonials would be a monumental task - it would really need to
be</tt>
<br><tt>done for</tt>
<br><tt>> each and every variety due to the varied differences in dies
and</tt>
<br><tt>striking</tt>
<br><tt>> pressure. BUT that would only be for the technical grade,
then</tt>
<br><tt>you'd need</tt>
<br><tt>> to take into account the problems (and it's a rare colonial that</tt>
<br><tt>doesn't</tt>
<br><tt>> have any problems worth mentioning).</tt>
<br><tt>> And in conclusion (my exit line) I think
that the accurate</tt>
<br><tt>description</tt>
<br><tt>> after the technical grade is what we need to assess on our own
what</tt>
<br><tt>the coin</tt>
<br><tt>> is worth. And pictures do help.</tt>
<br><tt>></tt>
<br><tt>> Ray W</tt>
<br>
<p>
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