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- From njraywms@optonline.net Sun Feb 16 09:29:23 2003
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Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 12:32:25 -0500
Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Re: How Many Colonial Collectors are There?
To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
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From: Ray Williams <njraywms@optonline.net>
X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=78843690
X-Yahoo-Profile: njray2
David,
I'm glad you can take things like that in stride! <BG> Although not
varieties, the die states of the Maris 77-dd have their legitimate rarities,
MDS being the scarcest.
Ray
----- Original Message -----
From: <palmers4@erols.com>
To: <colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 16, 2003 10:56 AM
Subject: [Colonial Numismatics] Re: How Many Colonial Collectors are There?
> Ray, I well remember the discussion about the die state issue, down
> in Pennsauken at C4 and the NJ symposium that year. Worst show I was
> ever at<bg> Lost 2 varieties of NJ's and all that was happening was
> TALK. Took me YEARS and $$$$ to get back to where I was then, but
> I'm not bitter, or anything<bg> David
>
>
> --- In colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com, Ray Williams <njraywms@o...>
> wrote:
> > David,
> > I delisted two varieties that you own. <BG> Only kidding. I
> do have
> > you down for 91 varieties. We dropped you from 91 to 89 by
> counting the
> > three die states of the 77 obverse as one variety. Then you
> obtained the 51
> > and a coin from a FL collection. which brings you up to 91
> again. Very
> > respectible. My ultimate goal is to be in the 90's - where you
> are. Nice
> > collection!
> > Ray
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: <palmers4@e...>
> > To: <colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Sunday, February 16, 2003 12:08 AM
> > Subject: [Colonial Numismatics] Re: How Many Colonial Collectors
> are There?
> >
> >
> > > Ray, I recounted and find I have 91 legitimate varieties. Don't
> > > forget the 51-g I got last year from a REALLY good friend. I
> have no
> > > idea which other one you might be missing of mine. David
> > >
> > > --- In colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com, Ray Williams
> <njraywms@o...>
> > > wrote:
> > > > David,
> > > > I currently have you as owning 89 legitimate NJ varieties
> <BG>
> > > > Ray W
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: <palmers4@e...>
> > > > To: <colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com>
> > > > Sent: Saturday, February 15, 2003 9:23 PM
> > > > Subject: [Colonial Numismatics] Re: How Many Colonial
> Collectors
> > > are There?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Rarity rating on NJ collectors falls to R-5+, I also do not
> own
> > > a 71-
> > > > > y, should have, but alas, could not. Just for the record,
> with 91
> > > > > varieties, I think I qualify as a "serious" NJ collector. Or
> did
> > > > > someone delist a few varieties when I wasn't looking, again?
> > > David
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com, "Clement V. Schettino"
> > > > > <CopperClem@a...> wrote:
> > > > > > Makes sense to me Dennis, and as support I must be the
> 25th NJ
> > > > > collector,
> > > > > > because I don't have my 71-y yet!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Clem
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From: albioncox <wierzba@a...> [mailto:wierzba@a...]
> > > > > > Sent: Saturday, February 15, 2003 8:06 PM
> > > > > > To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > Subject: [Colonial Numismatics] Re: How Many Colonial
> > > Collectors
> > > > > are There?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > For the record, I think NJ variety collectors are a low R6
> > > > > (includes
> > > > > > museums, inactive collectors, etc.) at 25 or so. As
> support,
> > > the NJ
> > > > > > 71-y has 23 to 24 distinct specimens known. The last public
> > > sale
> > > > > (to
> > > > > > the best of my knowledge) was Griffee in '95 (to yours
> truly).
> > > A
> > > > > > private sale of a low grade specimen happened about a year
> > > later.
> > > > > All
> > > > > > the known pieces are likely sitting in variety collections
> > > (with
> > > > > the
> > > > > > one exception of the 71-y over the Vermont). Hence the low
> R6
> > > > > > estimate.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -- In colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com, "David L. Palmer
> > > > > > <palmers4@e...>" <palmers4@e...> wrote:
> > > > > > > Just to follow thru on this, I think that Colonial
> > > collectors are
> > > > > > R8
> > > > > > > vs. the rest of the collecting population.<bg> David
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- In colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com, "albioncox
> > > <wierzba@a...>"
> > > > > > > <wierzba@a...> wrote:
> > > > > > > > My guess is that the MEDIAN state coinage variety is
> R5+,
> > > say
> > > > > 40
> > > > > > > > examples. Choice examples Vf-XF maybe 4-6 for the
> MEDIAN.
> > > Yes
> > > > > > > > collecting only choice examples of state coinage
> varieties
> > > is
> > > > > > very
> > > > > > > > difficult. Hence the price pressure for this segment.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > - In colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com, "colonialcoinunion
> > > > > > > <jagre@a...>"
> > > > > > > > <jagre@a...> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > Actually I wasn't trying to further a 'slabs are
> good for
> > > > > > > bringing
> > > > > > > > > new people into the field' theory. Though for what
> its
> > > > > worth I
> > > > > > > > think
> > > > > > > > > they do help reduce the intimidation factor as Dave
> Wnuck
> > > > > > > mentioned.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > My reason for posting was that I am curious about how
> > > many
> > > > > > > > collectors
> > > > > > > > > the population of colonial coins can really sustain.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I noted in a not so recent Bowers rare coin review
> that
> > > they
> > > > > > > > remarked
> > > > > > > > > about a particular colonial that 'it would be more
> > > valuable
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > > more
> > > > > > > > > sought after if it wasn't so rare'.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > My now infamous colonial cc project is leading me to
> that
> > > > > same
> > > > > > > > > conclusion. It seems that if anything the
> population of
> > > nice
> > > > > > > > > examples of a great many colonial types seems to be
> even
> > > > > > smaller
> > > > > > > > than
> > > > > > > > > I would have imagined, as the same few examples keep
> re-
> > > > > > > appearing
> > > > > > > > > through the years in different auctions.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > If ~30 different types have populations of 20 or less
> > > > > specimens
> > > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > > guess that means there can't be much more than a few
> > > dozen
> > > > > high
> > > > > > > end
> > > > > > > > > type collectors or they'll be a lot of fighting over
> > > those
> > > > > few
> > > > > > > > > coins. Actually, that sounds about right.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Which is to say nothing of the populations of
> different
> > > > > > > varieties
> > > > > > > > > Connecticuts or NJs or Mass silver, etc.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > JA
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > --- In colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com, Morris Hankins
> > > > > > > > > <joshalso2000@y...> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > Dave - don't set much store by my agreement. I am
> a
> > > > > > > > > > neophyte when it comes to colonials.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Wait until the experienced and hardcore
> colonialists
> > > > > > > > > > check in.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Morris
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > --- "coinrarities <coinrarities@y...>"
> > > > > > > > > > <coinrarities@y...> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > Hi Morris:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Whoa! You're freakin' me out! I didn't
> expect
> > > > > > > > > > > anyone in the chat
> > > > > > > > > > > room to agree with me about slabs.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Re my definition of hard core vs. dabbler
> > > > > > > > > > > colonial collectors:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > HARD CORE: Have definate collecting goals in
> mind,
> > > > > > > > > > > even if they are
> > > > > > > > > > > dispirate (and even contridictory!). Regularly
> add
> > > > > > > > > > > to their library,
> > > > > > > > > > > or on-line store of knowledge.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > DABBLER: Will add a piece here or there if they
> see
> > > > > > > > > > > it, it strikes
> > > > > > > > > > > their fancy, and they have the discretionary
> funds.
> > > > > > > > > > > May or may not
> > > > > > > > > > > be a "club joiner".
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > People can certainly drift from one catagory to
> the
> > > > > > > > > > > other over time...
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I'm sure others can refine these definitions.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Rgds,
> > > > > > > > > > > Dave W.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > --- In colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com, Morris
> > > > > > > > > > > Hankins
> > > > > > > > > > > <joshalso2000@y...> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > Dave, inclined to agree with you. I got my
> > > > > > > > > > > baptism of
> > > > > > > > > > > > fire on Large Cents. Now there is an area that
> > > > > > > > > > > really
> > > > > > > > > > > > needs cleaned up. These were not slabbed. Bob
> > > > > > > > > > > > Grellman did the attributions and grading on
> them
> > > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > most all were 20 points under their purported
> > > > > > > > > > > grade.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > I have a bought a few colonials that were
> slabbed
> > > > > > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > > > it seemed that they were either undervalued and
> > > > > > > > > > > being
> > > > > > > > > > > > ignored or people were away at shows. Most of
> > > > > > > > > > > them
> > > > > > > > > > > > were fairly close on grading, but a low grade
> > > > > > > > > > > Machins
> > > > > > > > > > > > turned out to be a Ctft Brit with a hugh die
> crack
> > > > > > > > > > > > through the spray. They have now all been
> > > > > > > > > > > liberated.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > So yes, it will help some of the newbies get
> > > > > > > > > > > started.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > However, my question is in regards to Your PSS.
> > > > > > > > > > > > Please define your definition of hardcore and
> > > > > > > > > > > > dabblers.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Morris
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > --- "coinrarities <coinrarities@y...>"
> > > > > > > > > > > > <coinrarities@y...> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > John:
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Sinerely,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Dave Wnuck
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > PPS: I guesstimate the number of hard-core
> > > > > > > > > > > colonial
> > > > > > > > > > > > > collectors at
> > > > > > > > > > > > > about 200; add in the dabblers and you get to
> > > > > > > > > > > 800 or
> > > > > > > > > > > > > so.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > "colonialcoinunion
> > > > > > > > > > > > > <jagre@a...>" <jagre@a...> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Looking for a rough guess - and not just
> the
> > > > > > > > > > > hard
> > > > > > > > > > > > > core guys, but
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > including the dabblers and the
> > > > > > > > > > > toe-in-the-water
> > > > > > > > > > > > > crowd.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > And the 2nd part of the question - does the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > serious hard core group
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > want to see new people coming into the
> > > > > > > > > > > 'field'?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > My sense is that
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > there is not a great deal of enthusiasm for
> > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > novice or newby
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > introduced to the field via, perhaps,
> slabbed
> > > > > > > > > > > > > items.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > JA
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
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