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- From jagre@attbi.com Fri Feb 28 06:08:28 2003
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Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 14:08:20 -0000
To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: Gallery Mint in a Slab
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From: "colonialcoinunion <jagre@attbi.com>" <jagre@attbi.com>
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Obviously thats pretty disturbing, and of course one must buy the=20
coin not the holder and not get lulled into a false sense of security=20
by the slab (not that thats a problem in here).
On the other hand, I think its safe to say that the number of RAW=20
counterfeit coins sold as genuine is enormously, vastly, hugely=20
higher than the number of SLABBED counterfeit coins sold as genuine.
JA
I think its pretty hard to argue
--- In colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com, Ray Williams <njraywms@o...>=20
wrote:
> eBay item 3008200485 (Ends Feb-17-03 18:36:04 PST ) - Rare 1 of=20
11,056 1793 Liberty Cap PCI N15Here's the auction, as downloaded from=20
the web,
> Ray W
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> ----- Original Message -----=20
> From: Ray Williams=20
> To: Michele Orzano=20
> Cc: Ray Williams=20
> Sent: Monday, February 24, 2003 11:57 AM
> Subject: eBay item 3008200485 (Ends Feb-17-03 183604 PST ) - Rare 1=20
of 11,056 1793 Liber
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> Rare 1 of 11,056 1793 Liberty Cap PCI N15=20=20
> Item # 3008200485=20=20
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> Coins:Coins: US:Large Cents:Early (1793-96)=20=20
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> Bidding is closed for this item.=20=20
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> Payment Details See Payment Instructions and item=20
description, or contact seller for more information.=20=20
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> Payment Instructions See item description--email for payment=20
info is bfr@i... Warren Shea 724 Deer Lane Kirbyville, MO 65679=20=20
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> --------------------------------------------------------------------
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> The seller ended this listing early because the item is no longer=20
available for sale.=20
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> (to seller)=20
> (to bidder)=20
> Current bid US $3,550.00 (reserve not yet met) Starting=20
bid US $0.01=20=20
> Quantity 1 # of bids 21 Bid history=20=20
> Time left Auction has ended.=20
> Location Branson, MO=20=20
> Country/Region United States /St. Louis=20=20
> Started Feb-14-03 18:04:41 PST Mail this auction=20
to a friend
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> Ends Feb-17-03 18:36:04 PST=20=20=20
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> Featured Plus! Auction=20
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> Seller (rating) alpha72(147)=20
> View seller's feedback | view seller's other items=20=20
>=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20
> High bidder brightstar47(85)=20=20
>=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20
> Payment Money order/cashiers check, personal check,=20
Visa/MasterCard, or see item description for payment methods accepted.
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> Shipping Buyer pays for all shipping costs. Will ship=20
to United States only.=20
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> Item Revised To review revisions made to this item by=20
the seller, click here .=20=20
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> Seller=20
> services=20=20
> Relist this item=20=20
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> Note: This is a Reserve Auction in which the reserve price=20
was not met. Therefore, there is no transaction between the seller=20
and the high bidder. Since there is no transaction, this item is not=20
eligible for eBay services that protect buyers and sellers, such as=20
transactional feedback, escrow or insurance. Those services are=20
available only for items listed, bought and sold on eBay in=20
compliance with our guidelines and policies.=20=20
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> Description=20=20
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> Very Rare ONE of 11,056 1793 Liberty Cap Large Cent---PCI Rated=20
FN15 (Fine 15)=20
> Your are bidding on one rare 1793 Liberty Cap large one cent=20
> rated FN15 (Fine 15) Corroded. Certified encapsulation and rating=20
by PCI.
> Mintage only 11,056. 10 day money back guarantee of 100%=20
satisfaction less shipping, insurance and eBay fees. The photos speak=20
for themselves---rarity makes this coin worth the price. When most=20
coins are minted in the Millions, this coin is over 200 years old and=20
who knows how many are still in circulation? If there were 10% in=20
circulation only 1,105 collectors could own one 1793 Liberty Cap in=20
any condition-well you could do math from here, i.e. 5% only 552,=20
less than 5%? For example the NGC has only graded 5! of them see=20
http://www.ngccoin.com/poplookup/poplookup-detail.asp?
PrintOrder=3D247&IDCoins=3D11359=20
> I also called PCGS they advised they have had only 41 graded!=20
> The PCGS site list this at $6,800.00
> http://www.pcgs.com/prices/frame.chtml?type=3Ddate&filename=3Dlarge_cent
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> The following site list retail at $11,000.00=20
http://www.numismedia.com/fmv/prices/lrgcnt/pricesgd.shtml
> The coin dealer gray sheet for 10/11/02 list wholesale at=20
$6,000.00.=20
> The reserve is low.=20
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> You decide by bidding what this 1793 Liberty Capt is worth?=20
> Thanks for Bidding=20
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> Please wait while images load.=20
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> Read carefully before bidding. Buyer agrees to the following:=20
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> =B7 YOU, the buyer, must contact me within 3 days of the end of the=20
auction.
> =B7 Bid ONLY if you intend to buy.
> =B7 Payment is to be received within 7 days of the end of auction.
> =B7 ALL items are listed with as much information as I have about=20
that item.=20
> =B7 All items are sold "AS IS" unless other wise stated.
> =B7 Reserve the right to cancel bids from those that have negative=20
feedback.
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> MONEY ORDERS or CASHIER'S CHECKS recommended.=20
> =B7 US buyers only-item will not ship until payment clears=20
> =B7 Personal checks can delay shipping for up to 14 days.=20
> =B7 ALL winning bidders will receive feedback.=20
> E-mail me if you have any questions.=20
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> I will also provide my telephone, if request, prior to close of=20
auction. Thanks.=20
> Shipping=20
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> Buyer pays shipping. Shipping and Handling $12.00. Insurance is=20
mandatory and will be accessed at $4,000.00 and above $13.00,=20
$6,000.00 and above $14.50, $10,000.00 above $16.75 and $12,000 and=20
above $19.00. Will send registered US Mail. The utmost care will be=20
taken in packing. Note: please don't bid if you think shipping fee is=20
to high-this fee does not even cover my time to pack the item! Any=20
return must be by registered mail and post marked with in ten days of=20
receipt. In the unlikely chance of buyer return-buyer is responsible=20
for return shipping, insurance and Ebay fees. Buyer has ten day to=20
exercise money back guarantee option, see description for details.=20
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> Will ship A.S.A.P.
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> Details
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> =B7 Bid ONLY if you intend to buy.
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> --------------------------------------------------------------------
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> On Feb-17-03 at 12:48:03 PST, seller added the following=20
information:=20
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> I have called PCI today and they verified that they graded this=20
coin and that it is an authentic 1793 Liberty Cap however due to the=20
following 3 Emails this will be pulled off auction with in 24hrs to=20
pursue further investigation into its authenticity
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> -any questions email me at bfr@i...=20
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> I apologize for any inconvenience
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> Email 1
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> None of the diagnostics match the known 1793 Liberty Caps.
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> There are 4 known obverses and 2 known reverses for the 93 caps.=20
I'm adding the key points from one of my reference books.=20=20
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> Obverse 12 - A Full millimeter of the staff shows clearly between=20
hair and cap. The lower end of the staff is heavy, bold, and rounded=20
at the tip, tapering toward the throat and less than its own diameter=20
from the bust.Two beads are directly or centrally over the I of=20
LIBERTY. The letters of the legend are very close to the border, the=20
L in particular almost touching the beads.
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> Obverse 13 The cracked die Liberty Cap. A straight, heavy crack=20
running from the border above E to the border just to the right of=20
the 3, divides this obverse into two almost equal parts. No examples=20
are known without the crack.
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> Obverse 14 - On this die, a bead perfectly dots the I of LIBERTY=20
and this is the best distinguishing characteristic. NOTE: There are=20
other things but on the picture you had on the listing, it did not=20
appear that the I was perfectly dotted.
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> Obverse 15 - Ninety-six beads in circle. End of pole to cap and=20
stand of 7 point directly to bead. Single bead centered above loop=20
of R. I almost dotted. NOTE: on yours the 7 and pole are not=20
correct.
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> Also the head style used on 93 Caps and a very few 94 Caps is=20
referred to as the head of 93. The head style on yours just doesn't=20
look like a head of 93. I've included a bitmap picture of a group of=20
93 Caps that was sold at auction recently. This was the biggest=20
accumulation of 93 Caps by one person ever.
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> Reverse K This reverse can be recognized at a glance, as the=20
central part is raised or elevated so that ONE CENT, a considerable=20
part of the left wreath, and some of the inner leaves of the right=20
wreath are always weak. A leaf terminates 0.5mm from the right foot=20
of M, and points directly at the center of the bottom of that=20
letter. The border has eighty-five beads. NOTE: As I recall the=20
leaves on yours were close but didn't match this description.
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> Reverse L Readily distinguished from the K reverse by the position=20
of the leave under ME of America. The leaf runs almost parallel to=20
the bottoms of the two letters, and points at the bottom of the=20
adjacent A.
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> Not mentioned in the diagnostics but which I noticed on your coin=20
is that the fraction on the reverse is "away from the dots". ON the=20
two known reverses the 100 of the 1/1000 fraction sit right on top of=20
the dots almost touching them.
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> The other thing that makes me suspicious is the gouge on the=20
reverse above the word ONE. That is the area where the Gallery Mint=20
museum stamped in the word COPY on the ones they made.
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> Email 2
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> It was made in Eureka Springs Arkansas, about fifty miles from you.=20
The word 'COPY' at the top of the wreath on reverse has been gouged=20
out and the piece has been deliberately corroded to look old.
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> Email 3
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> It has been compared to all known 1793 Liberty Caps and does not=20
match any of them. The chance of it being a previously unknown=20
variety is nill. It is a counterfeit that should never have been=20
slabbed.
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> --------------------------------------------------------------------
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> Free Counters powered by Andale!=20
> Bidding=20=20
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> Bidding is closed for this item.=20
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> This page is available on eBay for a limited time only. Please=20
print a copy for your own records.=20
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