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To: <colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com>
References: <bl9vps+asjn@eGroups.com>
Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Re: JPL New Jersey Picks
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 17:28:04 -0400
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You had to bring Denis Loring into it, didn't you? Yes, he is the foremost =
authority on LC's today, but respected? DP
----- Original Message -----=20
From: John Lorenzo=20
To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com=20
Sent: Monday, September 29, 2003 3:05 PM
Subject: [Colonial Numismatics] Re: JPL New Jersey Picks
It's silly. I got carried away. Sorry.
But we should never forget this great man!
Here is another story Dennis Loring once told a group of EAC'ers when=20
I was into large cents strictly. When Breen was at a show he could=20
hardly ever buy a coin for his collection or for research during=20
his "later" years. He was "limited" in his budget and the dealer=20
thinking to himself "Gee if Walter wants this coin then it must be=20
worth alot more than I am currently asking." Dennis L. indicated then=20
the price would normally double or triple so in his later years=20
Walter would be "shut out" from buying coins! Confirm with Dennis=20
Loring probably the most respected authority in large cents today.
OK-let's move on ....
Realy...
--- In colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com, Ray Williams <njraywms@o...>=20
wrote:
> John,
> I think it silly to go here John. You've already decided #1 and=20
#2 and
> left only #3 open for discussion. What is your definition=20
of "numismatist"?
> Where do the=20
terms "researcher", "collector", "cataloger", "author", etc.
> fit into this classification of numismatist? Do you automatically=20
assume
> that Dickeson, Maris, Crosby, Miller, Ryder, etc. are out of the=20
running for
> the top two spots? I also think it unfair to compare living vs.=20
dead
> numismatists. One's lifetime achievements can be looked at=20
objectively once
> their numismatic career is over. This might be an interesting line=20
to
> peruse if we just limit the discussion to past numismatists.
> Ray W
>=20
>=20
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John Lorenzo" <jlorenzo@o...>
> To: <colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, September 29, 2003 2:01 PM
> Subject: [Colonial Numismatics] Re: JPL New Jersey Picks
>=20
>=20
> > So that you get my opinion exactly:
> >
> > Top Numsmatist of all time:
> >
> > #1 Walter Breen
> >
> > #2 Michael Hodder
> >
> > #3 Open for discussion for the next 100 years
> >
> > JPL
> >
> >
> > --- In colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com, "John Lorenzo"=20
<jlorenzo@o...>
> > wrote:
> > > Having seen Breen speak a few times in the early 80's I remeber
> > quite
> > > well his speach at the First ANS-COAC talk on Large Cents in=20
1984?
> > > (at work). He simply blew away his auduence with his knowledge=20
of
> > > large cents during this talk working his way up and down the
> > Sheldon
> > > scale to prove his points as Mozart was able to do with musical
> > > notes.
> > > My point - Prior to his talk a previous speaker announced in
> > > his "opening remarks" on his topic to the audience indicating
> > during
> > > his research that he has proven Breen wrong (Breen was only=20
three
> > > feet away) and then proceeded to give his talk. It seemed to me=20
and
> > > speaking with other collectors that during his "era" it was
> > > commonplace to make a name for yourself by trying to find fault
> > with
> > > his work and writings.
> > > Now in the post-Breen era it seems we try to "match" his=20
incredible
> > > cumulative accomplishments.
> > > How history does change certain things and viewpoints.
> > > After the COAC talk in 1984 Mark Auerbach, another individual?=20
and
> > > myself (I was simply tagging along obviously) drove down to=20
midtown
> > > to a coin show. Breen mentioned during this memorable car ride=20
to
> > > Mark and the other gentleman and with some prior conversations I
> > had
> > > with Herb Silberman that Breen was sort of running "out of=20
time" in
> > > completing his "Encyclopedia." I am sure other people may wish=20
to
> > > confirm this notion or deny? it.
> > > There was some gaps in the Colonial Section and he made a=20
reference
> > > that he siimply had to put down what he had in his notes whether
> > > right or wrong.
> > > Someone indicated Breen was a "loose cannon" with information=20
that
> > > got him into trouble. To a degree this is true -however ...
> > > My interpretation is that the informational database of=20
numismatic
> > > knowlege in the mid 80's simply exceeded even his genius. Due to
> > this
> > > dilemma we have the writings in the Colonial chapters which did
> > give
> > > him the most problems and all subsequent researchers.
> > > All I want to say is in 1984 and for the rest of my life I will
> > never
> > > forget that 30 minutes in that car with the greatest numismatic
> > mind
> > > I have ever encountered or will ever encounter in my lifetime.
> > >
> > > Imagine if Breen "ONLY" focused on colonials for his "entire"
> > life!!!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com, JCSpilman/CNLF
> > > <JCSpilman1@C...> wrote:
> > > > Ray, et al
> > > >
> > > > I once wrote a prediction quite a few years ago (in B&M RCR)=20
that
> > > > Mike Hodder would eventually surpass Walter Breen for his
> > > > reputation in numismatics. It is a very nice feeling to see
> > > > one's prediction realized.
> > > >
> > > > Jim/CNLF
> > > >
> > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> > > >
> > > > mike hodder wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Ray:
> > > > >
> > > > > If all I did was write descriptions of colonial coins for
> > > > > auction catalogues I'd have an
> > > > > easy job. I do more politricks and business getting now than
> > > > > cataloguing. Yes, you're
> > > > > right, there's more that goes into a catalogue description=20
than
> > > > > just word pictures of
> > > > > coins. There's politricks, marketing, politricks,=20
politricks,
> > > > > and marketing, too. Did I
> > > > > forget to mention politricks?
> > > > >
> > > > > Ryder to Boyd to Ford, sounds like Tinker to Evans to Chance
> > > > > dosen't it?
> > > > >
> > > > > Sorry about JJF's desire for secrecy. You're right about the
> > > > > reasons for it. You're also
> > > > > right about how I felt about not being able to guide the=20
CC. I
> > > > > dropped hints over the
> > > > > past decade but couldn't do more.
> > > > >
> > > > > Finally, yeah, I take the heat for all the errors, printer's
> > > > > mistakes, typos, screw ups,
> > > > > etc. in each catalogue whether I had anything to do with=20
them
> > > > > or not. Par for the
> > > > > course and move on.
> > > > >
> > > > > Mike H
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com, Ray Williams
> > > > > <njraywms@o...> wrote:
> > > > > > Mike and all,
> > > > > > I'm enjoying getting an insight as to how cataloging=20
is
> > > > > done, as I'm
> > > > > > sure that most here are. I'm glad I'm not a cataloger!
> > > > > There is much fact
> > > > > > to work with, along with some unknowns. You must also use
> > > > > personal
> > > > > > observations and tastes in describing the coins. There is
> > > > > always something
> > > > > > that someone will debate with you. Your work is placed=20
under
> > > > > a microscope
> > > > > > for criticism and detailed analysis. You are expected to=20
be
> > > > > perfect when
> > > > > > you're human. There are sometimes things in the catalog=20
that
> > > > > are beyond
> > > > > > your control which you get blamed for. You're expected to
> > > > > have expertise on
> > > > > > every variety for every colonial series - most collectors
> > > > > can't totally
> > > > > > master one colonial series. I believe that if you want to
> > > > > know who the #1
> > > > > > cataloger is in the colonial field, look at the Ford
> > > > > catalog. We have a lot
> > > > > > of new information here and this is a book that I'll keep
> > > > > easily accessible
> > > > > > on my book shelf (Diane's china cabinets). I wish this
> > > > > information could
> > > > > > have been known years ago, but you have to respect Mike's
> > > > > professionalism in
> > > > > > honoring Ford's desire to keep the details of the=20
collection
> > > > > secret. I'll
> > > > > > debate the wisdom in Ford's desire to withhold information
> > > > > about his
> > > > > > collection to be able to better market them. I could=20
imagine
> > > > > that every
> > > > > > time I wrote a census in Penny Wise about NJs, Mike was
> > > > > probably biting his
> > > > > > tongue, wishing he could correct me. It is the secrecy=20
that
> > > > > some collectors
> > > > > > wish to maintain that makes census information=20
inaccurate. I
> > > > > know a few
> > > > > > friends with significant collections that weren't part of=20
the
> > > > > census in
> > > > > > Penny Wise. I'm sure it was fun for all that=20
participated.
> > > > > The value of it
> > > > > > will be determined by those who use it to add to new and=20
more
> > > > > accurate
> > > > > > information. Sorry, I tend to ramble... I'll stop now=20
and
> > > > > listen to others
> > > > > > comments. But if a new collector asked me what he'd need=20
to
> > > > > get started
> > > > > > collecting NJs, I'd suggest buying a Maris Plate copy and
> > > > > then obtaining the
> > > > > > Stack's catalog of the Ford collection.
> > > > > > I lied, I'm not going to stop now! I look at the
> > > > > pedigree info Mike has
> > > > > > given and marvel! It appears that with only a couple
> > > > > exceptions, Ford
> > > > > > purchased his collection intact from the Boyd estate. The
> > > > > majority of
> > > > > > Boyd's coinse were obtained through Ryder. These must=20
have
> > > > > been some
> > > > > > interesting collectors. FCC Boyd was the president of=20
the NJ
> > > > > Numismatic
> > > > > > Society, of which I'm currently the president. I feel
> > > > > honored that I'm in
> > > > > > the position he once held. There are several members of=20
this
> > > > > egroup that
> > > > > > are current members and several that are past members and
> > > > > moved out of the
> > > > > > area. The NJNS is an awesome group of guys - not the=20
typical
> > > > > coin club where
> > > > > > a bunch of guys just want to get out of the house for a=20
free
> > > > > cup of coffee
> > > > > > one night a month. There are authors, researchers and
> > > > > officers of a number
> > > > > > of State and national organizations. The show-n-tell=20
every
> > > > > month is
> > > > > > undescribable. Back to Boyd and Ryder. These are the=20
guys
> > > > > who formed this
> > > > > > awesome collection - who did the research - who tracked=20
down
> > > > > the coins and
> > > > > > obtained them. What fun they must have had! WOW, it's
> > > > > 10:00! I'd better
> > > > > > get to work! You all were saved by the clock - otherwise=20
you
> > > > > would have
> > > > > > been forced tolisten to more of my rambling (or forced to
> > > > > delete it!). Have
> > > > > > fun guys!
> > > > > > Ray W
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> > > > ADVERTISEMENT
> > > > [click here]
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > > > > colonial-coins-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> > > > > Service.
> >
> >
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > colonial-coins-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to=20
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor=20
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>You had to bring Denis Loring into it, did=
n't you?=20
Yes, he is the foremost authority on LC's today, but respected? DP</FONT></=
DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0p=
x; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>Fro=
m:</B>=20
<A href=3D"mailto:jlorenzo@ob.ilww.com" title=3Djlorenzo@ob.ilww.com>John=
=20
Lorenzo</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
href=3D"mailto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com"=20
title=3Dcolonial-coins@yahoogroups.com>colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com</A>=
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, September 29, 2003 3=
:05=20
PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [Colonial Numismatics] Re=
: JPL=20
New Jersey Picks</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><TT>It's silly. I got carried away. Sorry.<BR><BR>But we s=
hould=20
never forget this great man!<BR><BR>Here is another story Dennis Loring o=
nce=20
told a group of EAC'ers when <BR>I was into large cents strictly. When Br=
een=20
was at a show he could <BR>hardly ever buy a coin for his collection or f=
or=20
research during <BR>his "later" years. He was "limited" in his budget and=
the=20
dealer <BR>thinking to himself "Gee if Walter wants this coin then it mus=
t be=20
<BR>worth alot more than I am currently asking." Dennis L. indicated then=
=20
<BR>the price would normally double or triple so in his later years <BR>W=
alter=20
would be "shut out" from buying coins! Confirm with Dennis <BR>Loring pro=
bably=20
the most respected authority in large cents today.<BR><BR>OK-let's move o=
n=20
....<BR><BR>Realy...<BR><BR>--- In colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com, Ray=20
Williams <njraywms@o...> <BR>wrote:<BR>> John,<BR>> &nbs=
p; I=20
think it silly to go here John. You've already decided #1 and <BR>#=
2=20
and<BR>> left only #3 open for discussion. What is your definiti=
on=20
<BR>of "numismatist"?<BR>> Where do the <BR>terms "researcher",=20
"collector", "cataloger", "author", etc.<BR>> fit into this classifica=
tion=20
of numismatist? Do you automatically <BR>assume<BR>> that Dickes=
on,=20
Maris, Crosby, Miller, Ryder, etc. are out of the <BR>running for<BR>>=
the=20
top two spots? I also think it unfair to compare living vs.=20
<BR>dead<BR>> numismatists. One's lifetime achievements can be l=
ooked=20
at <BR>objectively once<BR>> their numismatic career is over. Th=
is=20
might be an interesting line <BR>to<BR>> peruse if we just limit the=20
discussion to past numismatists.<BR>> Ray W<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> =
-----=20
Original Message -----<BR>> From: "John Lorenzo"=20
<jlorenzo@o...><BR>> To:=20
<colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com><BR>> Sent: Monday, September 29=
,=20
2003 2:01 PM<BR>> Subject: [Colonial Numismatics] Re: JPL New Jersey=20
Picks<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> > So that you get my opinion=20
exactly:<BR>> ><BR>> > Top Numsmatist of all time:<BR>>=20
><BR>> > #1 Walter Breen<BR>> ><BR>> > #2 Michael=20
Hodder<BR>> ><BR>> > #3 Open for discussion for the next 100=
=20
years<BR>> ><BR>> > JPL<BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>> >=
; ---=20
In colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com, "John Lorenzo"=20
<BR><jlorenzo@o...><BR>> > wrote:<BR>> > > Having se=
en=20
Breen speak a few times in the early 80's I remeber<BR>> > quite<BR=
>>=20
> > well his speach at the First ANS-COAC talk on Large Cents in=20
<BR>1984?<BR>> > > (at work). He simply blew away his auduence w=
ith=20
his knowledge <BR>of<BR>> > > large cents during this talk worki=
ng=20
his way up and down the<BR>> > Sheldon<BR>> > > scale to p=
rove=20
his points as Mozart was able to do with musical<BR>> > >=20
notes.<BR>> > > My point - Prior to his talk a previous speaker=
=20
announced in<BR>> > > his "opening remarks" on his topic to the=
=20
audience indicating<BR>> > during<BR>> > > his research th=
at he=20
has proven Breen wrong (Breen was only <BR>three<BR>> > > feet a=
way)=20
and then proceeded to give his talk. It seemed to me <BR>and<BR>> >=
>=20
speaking with other collectors that during his "era" it was<BR>> > =
>=20
commonplace to make a name for yourself by trying to find fault<BR>> &=
gt;=20
with<BR>> > > his work and writings.<BR>> > > Now in th=
e=20
post-Breen era it seems we try to "match" his <BR>incredible<BR>> >=
>=20
cumulative accomplishments.<BR>> > > How history does change cer=
tain=20
things and viewpoints.<BR>> > > After the COAC talk in 1984 Mark=
=20
Auerbach, another individual? <BR>and<BR>> > > myself (I was sim=
ply=20
tagging along obviously) drove down to <BR>midtown<BR>> > > to a=
coin=20
show. Breen mentioned during this memorable car ride <BR>to<BR>> > =
>=20
Mark and the other gentleman and with some prior conversations I<BR>> =
>=20
had<BR>> > > with Herb Silberman that Breen was sort of running =
"out=20
of <BR>time" in<BR>> > > completing his "Encyclopedia." I am sur=
e=20
other people may wish <BR>to<BR>> > > confirm this notion or den=
y?=20
it.<BR>> > > There was some gaps in the Colonial Section and he =
made=20
a <BR>reference<BR>> > > that he siimply had to put down what he=
had=20
in his notes whether<BR>> > > right or wrong.<BR>> > >=
=20
Someone indicated Breen was a "loose cannon" with information <BR>that<BR=
>>=20
> > got him into trouble. To a degree this is true -however ...<BR>=
>=20
> > My interpretation is that the informational database of=20
<BR>numismatic<BR>> > > knowlege in the mid 80's simply exceeded=
even=20
his genius. Due to<BR>> > this<BR>> > > dilemma we have th=
e=20
writings in the Colonial chapters which did<BR>> > give<BR>> >=
;=20
> him the most problems and all subsequent researchers.<BR>> > &=
gt;=20
All I want to say is in 1984 and for the rest of my life I will<BR>> &=
gt;=20
never<BR>> > > forget that 30 minutes in that car with the great=
est=20
numismatic<BR>> > mind<BR>> > > I have ever encountered or=
will=20
ever encounter in my lifetime.<BR>> > ><BR>> > > Imagin=
e if=20
Breen "ONLY" focused on colonials for his "entire"<BR>> >=20
life!!!<BR>> > ><BR>> > ><BR>> > ><BR>> >=
;=20
><BR>> > ><BR>> > ><BR>> > ><BR>> >=20
><BR>> > ><BR>> > ><BR>> > ><BR>> > &=
gt;=20
--- In colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com, JCSpilman/CNLF<BR>> > >=20
<JCSpilman1@C...> wrote:<BR>> > > > Ray, et al<BR>> =
>=20
> ><BR>> > > > I once wrote a prediction quite a few ye=
ars=20
ago (in B&M RCR) <BR>that<BR>> > > > Mike Hodder would=20
eventually surpass Walter Breen for his<BR>> > > > reputation=
in=20
numismatics. It is a very nice feeling to see<BR>> > > >=
;=20
one's prediction realized.<BR>> > > ><BR>> > > >=
=20
Jim/CNLF<BR>> > > ><BR>> > > >=20
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<BR>> >=
> ><BR>> > > > mike hodder=20
wrote:<BR>> > > ><BR>> > > > > Ray:<BR>&=
gt;=20
> > > ><BR>> > > > > If all I did was write=20
descriptions of colonial coins for<BR>> > > > > auction=20
catalogues I'd have an<BR>> > > > > easy job. I do more=20
politricks and business getting now than<BR>> > > > >=20
cataloguing. Yes, you're<BR>> > > > > right, there's more =
that=20
goes into a catalogue description <BR>than<BR>> > > > > ju=
st=20
word pictures of<BR>> > > > > coins. There's politricks,=20
marketing, politricks, <BR>politricks,<BR>> > > > > and=20
marketing
|
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