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- From jlorenzo@ob.ilww.com Tue Apr 06 08:21:11 2004
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Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2004 15:18:54 -0000
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From: "John Lorenzo" <jlorenzo@ob.ilww.com>
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Subject: [Colonial Numismatics] Re: What is this??
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Unfortunately - I am Taylor-less as I donated my copy to WSR awhile
back. The reverse shield on this specimen is similar to one other
Blacksmith style Irish penny in my collection. As Weston has
suggested the six known Blacksmith Penny's as with the Baker $5,000
specimen example were probably products of English manufacturer based
on my research of provenance tracking of previous owners. The only
inference to Blacksmith here is the extreme crudeness of the specimen
and the haphazard placement of Oppenheim of the Baker coin to the
Blacksmith family in 1987 of the first recorded/viewed penny size
specimen. Of the six currently known specimens I have owned three and
I sold one to Anton and have personally viewed the three other known
specimens. The remaining three are the 1987 Baker-LI Collection coin,
the ANS specimen and a duplicate to the Baker coin which was found by
a Canadian dealer which is a duplacate of the Baker coin based on
plate comparisons of obverse/reverse dies which I viewed at an ANA in
Philly a couple of years back. Of the three all were of an English
provenance or cherried in England by Paul Bosco and Jimmy King.
My point is the craftmanship and Irish shield design on the sole
Irish Blacksmith-Style penny still in my collection is VERY similar
to this specimen and based on the seller's inference in inches this
specimen approximates out at around 35 mm (penny size planchet).
Since a regal English penny measures 34 mm from this period based on
a quick check this is probably the seventh recorded specimen ...
assuming Fuld & Tayman have not recorded any further types in the
Bank of Canada Montreal collection.
Yeah ... we blew it ... a lousy $500-600 on this penny "blacksmith."
HMMMMMMM....
Down try to downplay it Weston ... it will not work with me. SUPER
COIN!!! Just keep dreaming on your triple struck UNC Irish ... as you
just did a few moments ago!
--- In colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com, Ray Williams <njraywms@o...>
wrote:
> Isn't that about halfpenny size?
> Ray
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: mario
> To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2004 10:10 AM
> Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Re: What is this??
>
>
> HI JOHN;
> I BELIEVE IT WAS ROUGHLY 29mm,....
> MARIO
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: John Lorenzo
> To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2004 7:36 AM
> Subject: [Colonial Numismatics] Re: What is this??
>
>
> Mario - What was the size in mm of the Blacksmith Penny in
Taylor????
>
> --- In colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com, "mario"
<mariobyrge@c...>
> wrote:
> > RAY;
> > YES, SWEDEN TRADED IN BARS. SOME TOWNS IN IRELAND ADAPTED
> A "BARTER" IN TOKEN,.......SLAP TOKENS IS ONE OF THE MEANS.
HOWEVER,
> THIS COIN IS NOT A SLAP TOKEN,..........IT MORE THAN LIKELY WAS
> A "LOCAL" TOKEN AND NOT HONORED IN TRADE THROUGHOUT ALL OF
IRELAND.
> ALSO DURING THIS TIME PERIOD, IRELAND WAS DIVIDED IN POLITICAL
> CONTROL. I WOULD GUESS THAT THIS TOKEN OR COIN,..EVER HOW YOU
WANT TO
> LOOK AT IT, WAS SPARCELY PRODUCED WITHIN A LOCAL
AREA,........MOST
> LIKELY IN NORTHERN IRELAND,.........
> > MARIO
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Ray Williams
> > To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 8:29 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Re: What is this??
> >
> >
> > I was not aware of any copper coinage that traded in
commerce by
> weight. (Except those hugh Sweedish bars)
> > Ray
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: mario
> > To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 7:28 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Re: What is this??
> >
> >
> > I PLACED A BID ON THAT CONTEMPORARY COUNTERFEIT,.......IT
> APPEARS THAT THE LEGEND MAYBE "RUNIC" INWHICH IT WOULD BE
IRISH. I
> REFERENCED THAT COIN AGAINST "IRISH SLAP TOKENS" AND CAME UP
WITH
> NOTHING IN THAT DESIGN STAGE AT ALL. TO ME, IT APPEARS TO BE
> A "BARTER" TOKEN THAT WOULD CARRY THE VALUE BY THE WEIGHT OF
THE
> COPPER,......OFTEN, THEY WERE ISSUED DURING A DEPRESSION OR
ECONOMIC
> CALAPSE.
> > I AGREE WITH CLEM, THAT PRICE IS A BARGAIN. WHEN I PLACED
MY
> BID,......I THOUGHT THE VIEWERS WOULD NOT RECOGNIZE WHAT IT
IS,..SO I
> THOUGHT,..........OH WELL,..............ONLY IF WE CAN PREDICT!
> > MARIO
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Byron Weston
> > To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 4:04 PM
> > Subject: [Colonial Numismatics] Re: What is this??
> >
> >
> > --- In colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com, "John M.
Kleeberg"
> > <jmkleeberg@y...> wrote:
> > > --- In colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com, Steve Frank
> > > <taxi_steve929@y...> wrote:
> > > could it have bought more if noticed by more people??
Or
> did the
> > two
> > > high bidders just go real high and the winner got
stuck???
> anyone
> > > know??? Thanks. Steve
> > >
> > > I don't know about the price, but it may not be
totally
> crazy. I
> > > know very little about these things, other than that:
they
> are
> > > Irish, they are rare, they circulated in Ireland in
the
> early
> > > nineteenth century, they are penny size (as opposed
to most
> > > counterfeits, which are halfpenny size), they are
made to
> look
> > > crude, there is an example of one in the American
> Numismatic
> > Society
> > > collection (but I can't find it on the database at
the
> moment), and
> > > there is some article that mentions them in the
British
> Numismatic
> > > Journal, but I don't know the exact reference. I
believe
> the
> > > younger group (Vicken, John K. or Eric C.) know more
about
> this
> > than
> > > I do - it was from one of them that I learned about
the BNJ
> article.
> > >
> > > It's like those crude Irish counterfeit shillings -
all I
> can do
> > > about those is to say, "Ah, a slap token," in a
knowing
> voice, but
> > > that's about the extent of my knowledge.
> > >
> > > John M. Kleeberg
> >
> > An obvious imitation of the 1805-6 Irish designs, John,
but
> it could
> > have been made in either Ireland or Britain, likely
Britain
> though.
> > Just an opinion.
> > Byron
> >
> >
> >
> >
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