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From: Ray Williams <njraywms@optonline.net>
Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Re: Can Anyone Explain the Legitimacy of
Maris 81-ll,....84-kk,....85-nn
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From six feet away?
----- Original Message -----
From: johnmenc@optonline.net
To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2004 1:22 PM
Subject: [Colonial Numismatics] Re: Can Anyone Explain the Legitimacy of Maris 81-ll,....84-kk,....85-nn
I will show you response to Bill. In some ways you are right Mario -
for these unseen or rarely seen M.80's its really the authentication
of one person or one person and a respected auction house.
I remember the first time I got into contemporary counterfeits I
accidentally picked up a GEORGE II regal and showed to E.S. - My
comment was nice grade/nice Ctf. find...E.C. indicated yes but to
bad its a reagl viewing the coin three feet away without touching
it. Three years ago a new C4 person found a contemporary and said
not to me but to the person he was discussing the coin to "I wonder
if its struck or cast." I have 20/15 vision Mario and I indicated
much to his surprise or dismay? from six feet away ..."its a
cast...I can tell all the way from here!"
An educated eye goes a long way ...more later...back to work
Mario...I know this is weak ...Bill may respond ...he has little
patience now a days ....due to his ailments.
--- In colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com, "mario" <mariobyrge@c...>
wrote:
> To put it simply, can anyone explain the accepted last Maris
numbers, Maris 81-ll,......84-kk and 85-nn,. as "Legitimate" coins
within this series?
> Will the C-4 and the New Jersey Symposium ever rewrite to delist
these as legitimate issues? What do you think JPL and Ray
W?,........Several months ago, I had requested a photocopy of the
unique Maris 85-nn from Ray. After a few weeks, he had sent me a
copy of the picture of this mysterious coin that currently resides
in Bill Antons collection. According to Bill Anton, this coin
is "new" to the New Jersery census,..........and who else, but Bill
authenticated this specific coin? The answer, I believe that it was
Bill himself,........self appointed authenticator. Lets take a
close look at these 3 Maris numbers and what can we say about each
one of them.
> 1.) Maris 81-ll,......2 known to this date! The appearence of the
horse is a dead give away to the amateurish design that incorporates
this obverse, the plow, can be characterise with near percission
that is this was made from a casted mould, then the minter could
have impressed the plow with a "wishbone" from a chicken breast,
further, the denticles on the reverse are slanted, their points do
not point deirectly in to the design like all others,..a common
occurence of either a forger or perhaps a die cutter without a
steady hand.
> 2.)Maris 84-kk,......2 known to this date! first, the obverse
denticles are spaced further apart then anyother Maris number. The
horse looks very good and its ears are somewhat "concial" in shape,
well so is obverse 36,..but the jaw is puffy and rounded with the
nose protruding out,....looks like a "gun",..........but the plow,
well, a chicken wishbone gives off a much more realistic
impression,.....so saying this, this obverse die really was the work
of true inexperience. the reverse is very mysterious and that
the "R" in PLURIBUS is retrograded, thus meanning, backwards. No
another aspect under enlagement of the reverse clearly shows the the
retrograded "R" was probably an "I" punched into a very soft die,
ie: brass, copper or playdough,......then scribed, pay close
attention to the loop of the "R" and the stance,.extremely thin
unlike the backbone of that letter, thus compared to the series, a
inconsistant design as well.
> 3.) Antons unique Maris 85-nn: ......1 known to this date. This
coin if you enlarge the photograph of it, then carefully examine it,
you will definitly find the strongest of comparison to the camelhead
Maris 57-n variety. This Maris variety is considered a contemporay
counterfeit and has been accepted, I will not argue that point,
but, I feel that there were 2 types of planchets that they struck
this coin with,.first a rolled copper strip then cut into
planchets,......secondly, casted planchets,...weight variations are
the most widest of all in this series,.........however, a
contemporay counterfeit that it is. Now the unique Maris 85-nn is
nothing more than a graphical recut and damaged die. This type of
die can be made easily with a casted mould of this obverse and
reverse, simply impress a 57-nn into a jewelers mould, then cut and
recut the design until desired satisfaction,.........voi-la,......a
85-nn,...............Logically, there would be no way in hell, that
the 57-n and the 85-nn were made at the same mint at the same
time,.........also, the reverse"nn" would never logically be paired
with a 57,.......even by a countefeiters standard, a dead give away
and could never have been passed as a new variety
legitimately,..............
> So, can one determine that the Maris 81-ll and the Maris 84-kk
were produced during the rightful period when this series was being
struck? The answer, unlikely,........the facts,.........BOTH SHOW
UNDERTYPES THAT ARE CLEAR AND DISTINCTED a perfect factor of a
forgerer to use a planchet of the proper time period so that it
would pass only the specific gravity test,...........so could these
two Maris coins be classified in the 1850 to 1890 era? Possibly,
this accounts for the extremely poor and crude designs and how about
Bill's Maris 85-nn in the same 1850 to 1890 era? No
way,.....why?,........because not even your most knowledegable New
Jersey specialist in the 19th century could ever rationalize it's
existance,............the similarities are so so close that it would
have been impossible to produce two coins , each varying in opposite
direction of each other but yet, extremely close with diagnostics to
confirm these similarities,.............Mr. Bill,............I think
somehow that your expertising skills have slipped
somewhere!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> Of course, just my humble opinion
> mario
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Ray Williams
> To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2004 6:46 AM
> Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Slabbed NJ on ebay
>
>
> I agree with David,
> I've always liked the ears on the 6 obverse, with the eye
placed like a cyclops. Something that a child would sketch. The
positioning of the S is cool too.
> Ray
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: palmers4@e...
> To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2004 1:32 AM
> Subject: RE: [Colonial Numismatics] Slabbed NJ on ebay
>
>
> Absolutely, YOU! DP
>
> Original Message:
> -----------------
> From: buellish buell@v...
> Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 04:51:18 -0000
> To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Colonial Numismatics] Slabbed NJ on ebay
>
>
> <html><body>
>
>
> <tt>
> Greetings,<BR>
> Item #3916348774 is a Maris 6-D in an NGC AU-53 slab. Looks
about VF-<BR>
> 25 to me. Who is closer? Me or NGC?<BR>
> Buell<BR>
> <BR>
> <a
>
href="http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?">http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/e
BayISAP
> I.dll?</a><BR>
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>From six feet away?</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=johnmenc@optonline.net
href="mailto:johnmenc@optonline.net">johnmenc@optonline.net</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
href="mailto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com">colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, June 10, 2004 1:22
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [Colonial Numismatics] Re: Can
Anyone Explain the Legitimacy of Maris 81-ll,....84-kk,....85-nn</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><TT>I will show you response to Bill. In some ways you are
right Mario - <BR>for these unseen or rarely seen M.80's its really the
authentication <BR>of one person or one person and a respected auction
house.<BR>I remember the first time I got into contemporary counterfeits I
<BR>accidentally picked up a GEORGE II regal and showed to E.S. - My
<BR>comment was nice grade/nice Ctf. find...E.C. indicated yes but to <BR>bad
its a reagl viewing the coin three feet away without touching <BR>it. Three
years ago a new C4 person found a contemporary and said <BR>not to me but to
the person he was discussing the coin to "I wonder <BR>if its struck or cast."
I have 20/15 vision Mario and I indicated <BR>much to his surprise or dismay?
from six feet away ..."its a <BR>cast...I can tell all the way from
here!"<BR>An educated eye goes a long way ...more later...back to work
<BR>Mario...I know this is weak ...Bill may respond ...he has little
<BR>patience now a days ....due to his ailments.<BR><BR><BR><BR>--- In
colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com, "mario" <mariobyrge@c...>
<BR>wrote:<BR>> To put it simply, can anyone explain the accepted last
Maris <BR>numbers, Maris 81-ll,......84-kk and 85-nn,. as "Legitimate" coins
<BR>within this series?<BR>> Will the C-4 and the New Jersey
Symposium ever rewrite to delist <BR>these as legitimate issues? What do
you think JPL and Ray <BR>W?,........Several months ago, I had requested a
photocopy of the <BR>unique Maris 85-nn from Ray. After a few weeks, he had
sent me a <BR>copy of the picture of this mysterious coin that currently
resides <BR>in Bill Antons collection. According to Bill Anton, this coin
<BR>is "new" to the New Jersery census,..........and who else, but Bill
<BR>authenticated this specific coin? The answer, I believe that it was
<BR>Bill himself,........self appointed authenticator. Lets take a
<BR>close look at these 3 Maris numbers and what can we say about each <BR>one
of them.<BR>> 1.) Maris 81-ll,......2 known to this date! The appearence of
the <BR>horse is a dead give away to the amateurish design that incorporates
<BR>this obverse, the plow, can be characterise with near percission <BR>that
is this was made from a casted mould, then the minter could <BR>have impressed
the plow with a "wishbone" from a chicken breast, <BR>further, the denticles
on the reverse are slanted, their points do <BR>not point deirectly in to the
design like all others,..a common <BR>occurence of either a forger or perhaps
a die cutter without a <BR>steady hand.<BR>> 2.)Maris 84-kk,......2 known
to this date! first, the obverse <BR>denticles are spaced further apart then
anyother Maris number. The <BR>horse looks very good and its ears are somewhat
"concial" in shape, <BR>well so is obverse 36,..but the jaw is puffy and
rounded with the <BR>nose protruding out,....looks like a
"gun",..........but the plow, <BR>well, a chicken wishbone gives off a much
more realistic <BR>impression,.....so saying this, this obverse die really was
the work <BR>of true inexperience. the reverse is very mysterious and that
<BR>the "R" in PLURIBUS is retrograded, thus meanning, backwards. No
<BR>another aspect under enlagement of the reverse clearly shows the the
<BR>retrograded "R" was probably an "I" punched into a very soft die, <BR>ie:
brass, copper or playdough,......then scribed, pay close <BR>attention to the
loop of the "R" and the stance,.extremely thin <BR>unlike the backbone of that
letter, thus compared to the series, a <BR>inconsistant design as
well.<BR>> 3.) Antons unique Maris 85-nn: ......1 known to this date. This
<BR>coin if you enlarge the photograph of it, then carefully examine it,
<BR>you will definitly find the strongest of comparison to the camelhead
<BR>Maris 57-n variety. This Maris variety is considered a contemporay
<BR>counterfeit and has been accepted, I will not argue that point,
<BR>but, I feel that there were 2 types of planchets that they struck
<BR>this coin with,.first a rolled copper strip then cut into
<BR>planchets,......secondly, casted planchets,...weight variations are
<BR>the most widest of all in this series,.........however, a <BR>contemporay
counterfeit that it is. Now the unique Maris 85-nn is <BR>nothing more than a
graphical recut and damaged die. This type of <BR>die can be made easily with
a casted mould of this obverse and <BR>reverse, simply impress a 57-nn into a
jewelers mould, then cut and <BR>recut the design until desired
satisfaction,.........voi-la,......a <BR>85-nn,...............Logically, there
would be no way in hell, that <BR>the 57-n and the 85-nn were made at the same
mint at the same <BR>time,.........also, the reverse"nn" would never logically
be paired <BR>with a 57,.......even by a countefeiters standard, a dead give
away <BR>and could never have been passed as a new variety
<BR>legitimately,..............<BR>> So, can one determine that the Maris
81-ll and the Maris 84-kk <BR>were produced during the rightful period when
this series was being <BR>struck? The answer, unlikely,........the
facts,.........BOTH SHOW <BR>UNDERTYPES THAT ARE CLEAR AND DISTINCTED a
perfect factor of a <BR>forgerer to use a planchet of the proper time period
so that it <BR>would pass only the specific gravity test,...........so could
these <BR>two Maris coins be classified in the 1850 to 1890 era? Possibly,
<BR>this accounts for the extremely poor and crude designs and how about
<BR>Bill's Maris 85-nn in the same 1850 to 1890 era? No
<BR>way,.....why?,........because not even your most knowledegable New
<BR>Jersey specialist in the 19th century could ever rationalize it's
<BR>existance,............the similarities are so so close that it would
<BR>have been impossible to produce two coins , each varying in opposite
<BR>direction of each other but yet, extremely close with diagnostics to
<BR>confirm these similarities,.............Mr. Bill,............I think
<BR>somehow that your expertising skills have slipped
<BR>somewhere!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!<BR>> Of course, just my humble
opinion<BR>> mario<BR>> <BR>> ----- Original Message
----- <BR>> From: Ray Williams <BR>> To:
colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com <BR>> Sent: Thursday, June 10,
2004 6:46 AM<BR>> Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Slabbed
NJ on ebay<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> I agree with
David,<BR>> I've always liked the ears
on the 6 obverse, with the eye <BR>placed like a cyclops. Something that
a child would sketch. The <BR>positioning of the S is cool
too.<BR>> Ray<BR>> <BR>>
<BR>> <BR>> <BR>>
<BR>> ----- Original Message -----
<BR>> From: palmers4@e...
<BR>> To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
<BR>> Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2004 1:32
AM<BR>> Subject: RE: [Colonial Numismatics] Slabbed
NJ on ebay<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> Absolutely, YOU!
DP<BR>> <BR>> Original
Message:<BR>>
-----------------<BR>> From: buellish
buell@v...<BR>> Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 04:51:18
-0000<BR>> To:
colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com<BR>> Subject:
[Colonial Numismatics] Slabbed NJ on ebay<BR>> <BR>>
<BR>> <html><body><BR>> <BR>>
<BR>> <tt><BR>>
Greetings,<BR><BR>> Item #3916348774 is a
Maris 6-D in an NGC AU-53 slab. Looks <BR>about
VF-<BR><BR>> 25 to me. Who is closer? Me or
NGC?<BR><BR>>
Buell<BR><BR>>
<BR><BR>>
<a<BR>> <BR>href="<A
href="http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?">http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?</A>"><A
href="http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/e">http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/e</A><BR>BayISAP<BR>>
I.dll?</a><BR><BR>>
ViewItem&category=528&item=3916348774&rd=1<BR><BR>>
<BR><BR>> </tt><BR>> <BR>>
<BR>> <br><BR>>
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