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- From johnmenc@optonline.net Thu Jun 10 15:59:41 2004
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From: johnmenc@optonline.net
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Subject: [Colonial Numismatics] Re: Can Anyone Explain the Legitimacy of Maris 81-ll,....84-kk,....85-nn
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Bet me a drink this year at C4 with three struck and one cast. From
six feet I will pick out the cast. OK ....nine struck and one cast
for two drinks!
--- In colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com, Ray Williams <njraywms@o...>
wrote:
> From six feet away?
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: johnmenc@o...
> To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2004 1:22 PM
> Subject: [Colonial Numismatics] Re: Can Anyone Explain the
Legitimacy of Maris 81-ll,....84-kk,....85-nn
>
>
> I will show you response to Bill. In some ways you are right
Mario -
> for these unseen or rarely seen M.80's its really the
authentication
> of one person or one person and a respected auction house.
> I remember the first time I got into contemporary counterfeits I
> accidentally picked up a GEORGE II regal and showed to E.S. - My
> comment was nice grade/nice Ctf. find...E.C. indicated yes but
to
> bad its a reagl viewing the coin three feet away without
touching
> it. Three years ago a new C4 person found a contemporary and
said
> not to me but to the person he was discussing the coin to "I
wonder
> if its struck or cast." I have 20/15 vision Mario and I
indicated
> much to his surprise or dismay? from six feet away ..."its a
> cast...I can tell all the way from here!"
> An educated eye goes a long way ...more later...back to work
> Mario...I know this is weak ...Bill may respond ...he has little
> patience now a days ....due to his ailments.
>
>
>
> --- In colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com, "mario" <mariobyrge@c...>
> wrote:
> > To put it simply, can anyone explain the accepted last Maris
> numbers, Maris 81-ll,......84-kk and 85-nn,. as "Legitimate"
coins
> within this series?
> > Will the C-4 and the New Jersey Symposium ever rewrite to
delist
> these as legitimate issues? What do you think JPL and Ray
> W?,........Several months ago, I had requested a photocopy of
the
> unique Maris 85-nn from Ray. After a few weeks, he had sent me a
> copy of the picture of this mysterious coin that currently
resides
> in Bill Antons collection. According to Bill Anton, this coin
> is "new" to the New Jersery census,..........and who else, but
Bill
> authenticated this specific coin? The answer, I believe that it
was
> Bill himself,........self appointed authenticator. Lets take a
> close look at these 3 Maris numbers and what can we say about
each
> one of them.
> > 1.) Maris 81-ll,......2 known to this date! The appearence of
the
> horse is a dead give away to the amateurish design that
incorporates
> this obverse, the plow, can be characterise with near percission
> that is this was made from a casted mould, then the minter could
> have impressed the plow with a "wishbone" from a chicken breast,
> further, the denticles on the reverse are slanted, their points
do
> not point deirectly in to the design like all others,..a common
> occurence of either a forger or perhaps a die cutter without a
> steady hand.
> > 2.)Maris 84-kk,......2 known to this date! first, the obverse
> denticles are spaced further apart then anyother Maris number.
The
> horse looks very good and its ears are somewhat "concial" in
shape,
> well so is obverse 36,..but the jaw is puffy and rounded with
the
> nose protruding out,....looks like a "gun",..........but the
plow,
> well, a chicken wishbone gives off a much more realistic
> impression,.....so saying this, this obverse die really was the
work
> of true inexperience. the reverse is very mysterious and that
> the "R" in PLURIBUS is retrograded, thus meanning, backwards. No
> another aspect under enlagement of the reverse clearly shows the
the
> retrograded "R" was probably an "I" punched into a very soft
die,
> ie: brass, copper or playdough,......then scribed, pay close
> attention to the loop of the "R" and the stance,.extremely thin
> unlike the backbone of that letter, thus compared to the series,
a
> inconsistant design as well.
> > 3.) Antons unique Maris 85-nn: ......1 known to this date.
This
> coin if you enlarge the photograph of it, then carefully examine
it,
> you will definitly find the strongest of comparison to the
camelhead
> Maris 57-n variety. This Maris variety is considered a
contemporay
> counterfeit and has been accepted, I will not argue that point,
> but, I feel that there were 2 types of planchets that they
struck
> this coin with,.first a rolled copper strip then cut into
> planchets,......secondly, casted planchets,...weight variations
are
> the most widest of all in this series,.........however, a
> contemporay counterfeit that it is. Now the unique Maris 85-nn
is
> nothing more than a graphical recut and damaged die. This type
of
> die can be made easily with a casted mould of this obverse and
> reverse, simply impress a 57-nn into a jewelers mould, then cut
and
> recut the design until desired satisfaction,.........voi-
la,......a
> 85-nn,...............Logically, there would be no way in hell,
that
> the 57-n and the 85-nn were made at the same mint at the same
> time,.........also, the reverse"nn" would never logically be
paired
> with a 57,.......even by a countefeiters standard, a dead give
away
> and could never have been passed as a new variety
> legitimately,..............
> > So, can one determine that the Maris 81-ll and the Maris 84-kk
> were produced during the rightful period when this series was
being
> struck? The answer, unlikely,........the facts,.........BOTH
SHOW
> UNDERTYPES THAT ARE CLEAR AND DISTINCTED a perfect factor of a
> forgerer to use a planchet of the proper time period so that it
> would pass only the specific gravity test,...........so could
these
> two Maris coins be classified in the 1850 to 1890 era? Possibly,
> this accounts for the extremely poor and crude designs and how
about
> Bill's Maris 85-nn in the same 1850 to 1890 era? No
> way,.....why?,........because not even your most knowledegable
New
> Jersey specialist in the 19th century could ever rationalize
it's
> existance,............the similarities are so so close that it
would
> have been impossible to produce two coins , each varying in
opposite
> direction of each other but yet, extremely close with
diagnostics to
> confirm these similarities,.............Mr. Bill,............I
think
> somehow that your expertising skills have slipped
> somewhere!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> > Of course, just my humble opinion
> > mario
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Ray Williams
> > To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2004 6:46 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Slabbed NJ on ebay
> >
> >
> > I agree with David,
> > I've always liked the ears on the 6 obverse, with the
eye
> placed like a cyclops. Something that a child would sketch.
The
> positioning of the S is cool too.
> > Ray
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: palmers4@e...
> > To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2004 1:32 AM
> > Subject: RE: [Colonial Numismatics] Slabbed NJ on ebay
> >
> >
> > Absolutely, YOU! DP
> >
> > Original Message:
> > -----------------
> > From: buellish buell@v...
> > Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 04:51:18 -0000
> > To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [Colonial Numismatics] Slabbed NJ on ebay
> >
> >
> > <html><body>
> >
> >
> > <tt>
> > Greetings,<BR>
> > Item #3916348774 is a Maris 6-D in an NGC AU-53 slab.
Looks
> about VF-<BR>
> > 25 to me. Who is closer? Me or NGC?<BR>
> > Buell<BR>
> > <BR>
> > <a
> >
>
href="http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?">http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/e
> BayISAP
> > I.dll?</a><BR>
> > ViewItem&category=528&item=3916348774&rd=1<BR>
> > <BR>
> > </tt>
> >
> >
> > <br>
> >
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