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From: "mario" <mariobyrge@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Re: Can Anyone Explain the Legitimacy of Maris 81-ll,....84-kk,....85-nn
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John;
The 81-ll and the 84-kk are 19th century at best,........the undertypes are=
nonsense in existance for this type of crude dies. This factor clearly dem=
onstrates that the New Jersey dies were amatuerish with mistakes,.....what =
better way to "cover-up" the crudeness by using a host coin to help obliver=
ate the Jersey design. John, I cannot fantham what you are saying that thes=
e maris 80's have a design element in common,.......look at them, what do t=
he three share from the mints of the time??????????? look at the damn horse=
s John, the 81-ll is a crap contusion of nonsense all the way, so if it is =
a legitmate variety, then the coin I just bought which displays a more natu=
ral look is a forgery?,......Non sense,.............John think about this s=
tatement: What better way to verify a new variety then to obliverate and co=
ver up portions of a host coin?
Mario
----- Original Message -----=20
From: johnmenc@optonline.net=20
To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com=20
Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2004 5:55 PM
Subject: [Colonial Numismatics] Re: Can Anyone Explain the Legitimacy of =
Maris 81-ll,....84-kk,....85-nn
One keyword as this coin continues on in its trail of=20
onlookers/authenticators...this coin has no uniformity. These other=20
Maris varieites although crude or odd to the mainstream three normal=20
mint coins speaking of NJ's here have "uniformity of its design=20
elements." This coin has NO uniformity. All of a sudden one sees=20
a "R" punch (as one example) in PLURIBUS which appears as an "I"=20
punch with a "3" attached to its right side. A ghosted out "C"=20
between NOVA and CAESAREA - in no way indicating it to be part of an=20
undertype or double striking, etc, etc,...and around and around we=20
go - one example after another - UNLIKE these other Maris varieites=20
which have no motifs or letter punch ... out of whack and HAVE=20
UNIFORMITY OF DESIGN ELEMENTS.
--- In colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com, "mario" <mariobyrge@c...>=20
wrote:
> Well John;
> Whether Bill responds or not, I have a great eye myself with near=20
20/20 vision. It seems that some C-4 members will not reason Marios=20
beliefs, just their own. I think that alot of colonial people get=20
suspicious of Mario because of my past selling of forgery=20
material,........some have even suggested that I am producing it=20
myself. Infront of this group, the answer is definitly, "No",......I=20
do not make colonial forgeries,........but do I understand on how=20
they are produced? Well, yes most definitly because I had taken many=20
years and alot of money to purposely buy these to study and to=20
record them. 30 years ago, nobody knew anything about them, just=20
that they were not anything specials, but a beginners "toy" was=20
paraphrased. 2 1/2 years ago, PCGS had heard of me from someone,=20
they contacted me to send me a coin for my opinion. It was a New=20
England XII and struck 95% true to the genuoine coins. Once I=20
recieved the coin, I had 2 days to make a determination. However, it=20
was less than half an hour after I recieved the coin, "no=20
good",.........I return it with 7 pages of photographs and=20
documentation on the known die marriages for this series, the wieght=20
and size and all specs. It turned out that around 5 months or so=20
later, this coin was submitted to PCGS by a C-4 member at the=20
time,.............but the whole trick of this matter was that I=20
onced owned that very same forgery and had sold it on ebay for=20
around $70 under my old name, bbaycolony. If I had the talent and=20
the ability to produce a rare forgery, then wouldn't it be to my=20
advantage to take alittle more time and patience and produce a die=20
that will exactly match 100% of a rare colonial?,......so, when=20
people in colonials hear of me perhaps spending $4000 on a unknown=20
and unauthenticated coin that could be a possible forgery, then some=20
may have a jealous motive or something to discourage proper=20
examination and "thwart" an authenticity attempt? Possibilities my=20
friend,...........I have to look at the broad spectrum not only for=20
me, Mario, but for many years I have always question several coins=20
suchs=20
> 1.) New Jersery coppers from the Maris 79-ee to the Maris 85-nn
> 2.) Connecticut coppers from the Bundtown Mints, Miller: 2-3T and=20
the 2.4U
> 3.) The 1652 Oaktree VI "6 over 12" struck on a cut down=20
shilling,.........no this does not make any sense. Look, the silver=20
weight itself was proper for the value, so way reduce the value of=20
the silver, intrinsic value, for a denominational coin,.so why cut=20
down silver to fit a smaller denomination?????????? HMMMMMMMMMMMMM
> So you see, all these a great points that this organization should=20
start to take into consideration,.....if it is good, then fine, but=20
prove it all the way, science included, but if not good, then say-
so,.........even if the coin's owner takes a powder on the price he=20
paid,..........but, a re examination of our own collections should=20
be taken too.=20
> Thank you
> Mario
> ----- Original Message -----=20
> From: johnmenc@o...=20
> To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com=20
> Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2004 12:22 PM
> Subject: [Colonial Numismatics] Re: Can Anyone Explain the=20
Legitimacy of Maris 81-ll,....84-kk,....85-nn
>=20
>=20
> I will show you response to Bill. In some ways you are right=20
Mario -=20
> for these unseen or rarely seen M.80's its really the=20
authentication=20
> of one person or one person and a respected auction house.
> I remember the first time I got into contemporary counterfeits I=20
> accidentally picked up a GEORGE II regal and showed to E.S. - My=20
> comment was nice grade/nice Ctf. find...E.C. indicated yes but=20
to=20
> bad its a reagl viewing the coin three feet away without=20
touching=20
> it. Three years ago a new C4 person found a contemporary and=20
said=20
> not to me but to the person he was discussing the coin to "I=20
wonder=20
> if its struck or cast." I have 20/15 vision Mario and I=20
indicated=20
> much to his surprise or dismay? from six feet away ..."its a=20
> cast...I can tell all the way from here!"
> An educated eye goes a long way ...more later...back to work=20
> Mario...I know this is weak ...Bill may respond ...he has little=20
> patience now a days ....due to his ailments.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> --- In colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com, "mario" <mariobyrge@c...>=20
> wrote:
> > To put it simply, can anyone explain the accepted last Maris=20
> numbers, Maris 81-ll,......84-kk and 85-nn,. as "Legitimate"=20
coins=20
> within this series?
> > Will the C-4 and the New Jersey Symposium ever rewrite to=20
delist=20
> these as legitimate issues? What do you think JPL and Ray=20
> W?,........Several months ago, I had requested a photocopy of=20
the=20
> unique Maris 85-nn from Ray. After a few weeks, he had sent me a=20
> copy of the picture of this mysterious coin that currently=20
resides=20
> in Bill Antons collection. According to Bill Anton, this coin=20
> is "new" to the New Jersery census,..........and who else, but=20
Bill=20
> authenticated this specific coin? The answer, I believe that it=20
was=20
> Bill himself,........self appointed authenticator. Lets take a=20
> close look at these 3 Maris numbers and what can we say about=20
each=20
> one of them.
> > 1.) Maris 81-ll,......2 known to this date! The appearence of=20
the=20
> horse is a dead give away to the amateurish design that=20
incorporates=20
> this obverse, the plow, can be characterise with near percission=20
> that is this was made from a casted mould, then the minter could=20
> have impressed the plow with a "wishbone" from a chicken breast,=20
> further, the denticles on the reverse are slanted, their points=20
do=20
> not point deirectly in to the design like all others,..a common=20
> occurence of either a forger or perhaps a die cutter without a=20
> steady hand.
> > 2.)Maris 84-kk,......2 known to this date! first, the obverse=20
> denticles are spaced further apart then anyother Maris number.=20
The=20
> horse looks very good and its ears are somewhat "concial" in=20
shape,=20
> well so is obverse 36,..but the jaw is puffy and rounded with=20
the=20
> nose protruding out,....looks like a "gun",..........but the=20
plow,=20
> well, a chicken wishbone gives off a much more realistic=20
> impression,.....so saying this, this obverse die really was the=20
work=20
> of true inexperience. the reverse is very mysterious and that=20
> the "R" in PLURIBUS is retrograded, thus meanning, backwards. No=20
> another aspect under enlagement of the reverse clearly shows the=20
the=20
> retrograded "R" was probably an "I" punched into a very soft=20
die,=20
> ie: brass, copper or playdough,......then scribed, pay close=20
> attention to the loop of the "R" and the stance,.extremely thin=20
> unlike the backbone of that letter, thus compared to the series,=20
a=20
> inconsistant design as well.
> > 3.) Antons unique Maris 85-nn: ......1 known to this date.=20
This=20
> coin if you enlarge the photograph of it, then carefully examine=20
it,=20
> you will definitly find the strongest of comparison to the=20
camelhead=20
> Maris 57-n variety. This Maris variety is considered a=20
contemporay=20
> counterfeit and has been accepted, I will not argue that point,=20
> but, I feel that there were 2 types of planchets that they=20
struck=20
> this coin with,.first a rolled copper strip then cut into=20
> planchets,......secondly, casted planchets,...weight variations=20
are=20
> the most widest of all in this series,.........however, a=20
> contemporay counterfeit that it is. Now the unique Maris 85-nn=20
is=20
> nothing more than a graphical recut and damaged die. This type=20
of=20
> die can be made easily with a casted mould of this obverse and=20
> reverse, simply impress a 57-nn into a jewelers mould, then cut=20
and=20
> recut the design until desired satisfaction,.........voi-
la,......a=20
> 85-nn,...............Logically, there would be no way in hell,=20
that=20
> the 57-n and the 85-nn were made at the same mint at the same=20
> time,.........also, the reverse"nn" would never logically be=20
paired=20
> with a 57,.......even by a countefeiters standard, a dead give=20
away=20
> and could never have been passed as a new variety=20
> legitimately,..............
> > So, can one determine that the Maris 81-ll and the Maris 84-kk=20
> were produced during the rightful period when this series was=20
being=20
> struck? The answer, unlikely,........the facts,.........BOTH=20
SHOW=20
> UNDERTYPES THAT ARE CLEAR AND DISTINCTED a perfect factor of a=20
> forgerer to use a planchet of the proper time period so that it=20
> would pass only the specific gravity test,...........so could=20
these=20
> two Maris coins be classified in the 1850 to 1890 era? Possibly,=20
> this accounts for the extremely poor and crude designs and how=20
about=20
> Bill's Maris 85-nn in the same 1850 to 1890 era? No=20
> way,.....why?,........because not even your most knowledegable=20
New=20
> Jersey specialist in the 19th century could ever rationalize=20
it's=20
> existance,............the similarities are so so close that it=20
would=20
> have been impossible to produce two coins , each varying in=20
opposite=20
> direction of each other but yet, extremely close with=20
diagnostics to=20
> confirm these similarities,.............Mr. Bill,............I=20
think=20
> somehow that your expertising skills have slipped=20
> somewhere!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> > Of course, just my humble opinion
> > mario
> >=20
> > ----- Original Message -----=20
> > From: Ray Williams=20
> > To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com=20
> > Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2004 6:46 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Slabbed NJ on ebay
> >=20
> >=20
> > I agree with David,
> > I've always liked the ears on the 6 obverse, with the=20
eye=20
> placed like a cyclops. Something that a child would sketch.=20=20
The=20
> positioning of the S is cool too.
> > Ray
> >=20
> >=20=20=20=20
> >=20=20=20=20=20
> >=20
> >=20
> > ----- Original Message -----=20
> > From: palmers4@e...=20
> > To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com=20
> > Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2004 1:32 AM
> > Subject: RE: [Colonial Numismatics] Slabbed NJ on ebay
> >=20
> >=20
> > Absolutely, YOU! DP
> >=20
> > Original Message:
> > -----------------
> > From: buellish buell@v...
> > Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 04:51:18 -0000
> > To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [Colonial Numismatics] Slabbed NJ on ebay
> >=20
> >=20
> > <html><body>
> >=20
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> > <tt>
> > Greetings,<BR>
> > Item #3916348774 is a Maris 6-D in an NGC AU-53 slab.=20
Looks=20
> about VF-<BR>
> > 25 to me. Who is closer? Me or NGC?<BR>
> > Buell<BR>
> > <BR>
> > <a
> >=20=20=20=20=20
>=20=20=20
href=3D"http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?">http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/e
> BayISAP
> > I.dll?</a><BR>
> > ViewItem&category=3D528&item=3D3916348774&rd=3D1<BR>
> > <BR>
> > </tt>
> >=20
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>John;</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The 81-ll and the 84-kk are 19th century a=
t=20
best,........the undertypes are nonsense in existance for this type of crud=
e=20
dies. This factor clearly demonstrates that the New Jersey dies were amatue=
rish=20
with mistakes,.....what better way to "cover-up" the crudeness by using a h=
ost=20
coin to help obliverate the Jersey design. John, I cannot fantham what you =
are=20
saying that these maris 80's have a design element in common,.......look at=
=20
them, what do the three share from the mints of the time??????????? look at=
the=20
damn horses John, the 81-ll is a crap contusion of nonsense all the way, so=
if=20
it is a legitmate variety, then the coin I just bought which displays a mor=
e=20
natural look is a forgery?,......Non sense,.............John think about th=
is=20
statement: What better way to verify a new variety then to obliverate and c=
over=20
up portions of a host coin?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Mario</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LE=
FT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>Fro=
m:</B>=20
<A title=3Djohnmenc@optonline.net=20
href=3D"mailto:johnmenc@optonline.net">johnmenc@optonline.net</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
title=3Dcolonial-coins@yahoogroups.com=20
href=3D"mailto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com">colonial-coins@yahoogroups=
.com</A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, June 10, 2004 5:55=
=20
PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [Colonial Numismatics] Re=
: Can=20
Anyone Explain the Legitimacy of Maris 81-ll,....84-kk,....85-nn</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><TT>One keyword as this coin continues on in its trail of=
=20
<BR>onlookers/authenticators...this coin has no uniformity. These other=20
<BR>Maris varieites although crude or odd to the mainstream three normal=
=20
<BR>mint coins speaking of NJ's here have "uniformity of its design=20
<BR>elements." This coin has NO uniformity. All of a sudden one sees <BR>=
a "R"=20
punch (as one example) in PLURIBUS which appears as an "I" <BR>punch with=
a=20
"3" attached to its right side. A ghosted out "C" <BR>between NOVA and=20
CAESAREA - in no way indicating it to be part of an <BR>undertype or doub=
le=20
striking, etc, etc,...and around and around we <BR>go - one example after=
=20
another - UNLIKE these other Maris varieites <BR>which have no motifs or=
=20
letter punch ... out of whack and HAVE <BR>UNIFORMITY OF DESIGN=20
ELEMENTS.<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>--- In colonial-coins@yahoogroups.co=
m,=20
"mario" <mariobyrge@c...> <BR>wrote:<BR>> Well John;<BR>> Whe=
ther=20
Bill responds or not, I have a great eye myself with near <BR>20/20 visio=
n. It=20
seems that some C-4 members will not reason Marios <BR>beliefs, just thei=
r=20
own. I think that alot of colonial people get <BR>suspicious of Mario bec=
ause=20
of my past selling of forgery <BR>material,........some have even suggest=
ed=20
that I am producing it <BR>myself. Infront of this group, the answer is=20
definitly, "No",......I <BR>do not make colonial forgeries,........but do=
I=20
understand on how <BR>they are produced? Well, yes most definitly because=
I=20
had taken many <BR>years and alot of money to purposely buy these to stud=
y and=20
to <BR>record them. 30 years ago, nobody knew anything about them, just=20
<BR>that they were not anything specials, but a beginners "toy" was=20
<BR>paraphrased. 2 1/2 years ago, PCGS had heard of me from someone=
,=20
<BR>they contacted me to send me a coin for my opinion. It was a New=20
<BR>England XII and struck 95% true to the genuoine coins. Once I <BR>rec=
ieved=20
the coin, I had 2 days to make a determination. However, it <BR>was less =
than=20
half an hour after I recieved the coin, "no <BR>good",.........I return i=
t=20
with 7 pages of photographs and <BR>documentation on the known die marria=
ges=20
for this series, the wieght <BR>and size and all specs. It turned out tha=
t=20
around 5 months or so <BR>later, this coin was submitted to PCGS by a C-4=
=20
member at the <BR>time,.............but the whole trick of this matter wa=
s=20
that I <BR>onced owned that very same forgery and had sold it on ebay
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