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- From palmers4@erols.com Fri Jun 11 07:00:55 2004
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From: "palmers4@erols.com" <palmers4@erols.com>
Reply-To: palmers4@erols.com
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Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Re: Can Anyone Explain the Legitimacy ofMaris 81-ll,....84-kk,....85-nn
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Just what we need heretical iconoclasm? Isn't it by nature heretical tho'?
DP
Original Message:
-----------------
From: Ray Williams njraywms@optonline.net
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 09:01:09 -0400
To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Re: Can Anyone Explain the Legitimacy
ofMaris 81-ll,....84-kk,....85-nn
THIS IS HERESY <BG>
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Roger Moore=20
To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com=20
Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2004 11:02 PM
Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Re: Can Anyone Explain the Legitimacy
of Maris 81-ll,....84-kk,....85-nn
Jim, Modern iconoclasm seems to be a growing
development of the colonial numismatic world of 2004.=20
Not founded in a desire to pull down religious dogma,
this new iconoclasm is oriented toward aggressive
questioning of the ideological worship of false coins.
Previous numismatic pronouncements by honored
numismatists can no longer be blindly followed and nor
their tracts read with utter reverence. Blasphemy?=20
Possibly but upon the ruins produced by the
destruction of this idol worship, a new and stronger
colonial numismatism will rise!! Roger
--- JCSpilman <JCSpilman1@Comcast.NET> wrote:
> My Dear Roger - -
>=20
> At this point I must ask whether you consider
> yourself a Year
> 1641 or Year 1842 Iconoclast. There
> is a very important difference and I must know your
> leanings to
> properly understand your predilection.
>=20
> Jim/CNLF
>=20
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D.
>=20
> Roger Moore wrote:
>=20
> > John, Mario has a point here. Many of us have
> > accepted past dogma on coinages that we love based
> on
> > questionable information from past numismatists.=20
> We
> > are finding out that at least some of these past
> > numismatists were not angels. I am not advocating
> the
> > removal from our lists the varieties we have been
> > handed down as verified coins - yet. I am saying
> that
> > these coins need a relook using the techniques
> that we
> > presently have and with the understanding that
> they
> > will be relooked at once again when the technology
> > improves once again. Roger, The Iconoclast
> >
> >
> > --- mario <mariobyrge@comcast.net> wrote:
> > > John;
> > > The 81-ll and the 84-kk are 19th century at
> > > best,........the undertypes are nonsense in
> > > existance for this type of crude dies. This
> factor
> > > clearly demonstrates that the New Jersey dies
> were
> > > amatuerish with mistakes,.....what better way to
> > > "cover-up" the crudeness by using a host coin to
> > > help obliverate the Jersey design. John, I
> cannot
> > > fantham what you are saying that these maris
> 80's
> > > have a design element in common,.......look at
> them,
> > > what do the three share from the mints of the
> > > time??????????? look at the damn horses John,
> the
> > > 81-ll is a crap contusion of nonsense all the
> way,
> > > so if it is a legitmate variety, then the coin I
> > > just bought which displays a more natural look
> is a
> > > forgery?,......Non sense,.............John think
> > > about this statement: What better way to verify
> a
> > > new variety then to obliverate and cover up
> portions
> > > of a host coin?
> > > Mario
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: johnmenc@optonline.net
> > > To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2004 5:55 PM
> > > Subject: [Colonial Numismatics] Re: Can Anyone
> > > Explain the Legitimacy of Maris
> > > 81-ll,....84-kk,....85-nn
> > >
> > >
> > > One keyword as this coin continues on in its
> trail
> > > of
> > > onlookers/authenticators...this coin has no
> > > uniformity. These other
> > > Maris varieites although crude or odd to the
> > > mainstream three normal
> > > mint coins speaking of NJ's here have
> "uniformity
> > > of its design
> > > elements." This coin has NO uniformity. All of
> a
> > > sudden one sees
> > > a "R" punch (as one example) in PLURIBUS which
> > > appears as an "I"
> > > punch with a "3" attached to its right side. A
> > > ghosted out "C"
> > > between NOVA and CAESAREA - in no way
> indicating
> > > it to be part of an
> > > undertype or double striking, etc, etc,...and
> > > around and around we
> > > go - one example after another - UNLIKE these
> > > other Maris varieites
> > > which have no motifs or letter punch ... out
> of
> > > whack and HAVE
> > > UNIFORMITY OF DESIGN ELEMENTS.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com, "mario"
> > > <mariobyrge@c...>
> > > wrote:
> > > > Well John;
> > > > Whether Bill responds or not, I have a great
> eye
> > > myself with near
> > > 20/20 vision. It seems that some C-4 members
> will
> > > not reason Marios
> > > beliefs, just their own. I think that alot of
> > > colonial people get
> > > suspicious of Mario because of my past selling
> of
> > > forgery
> > > material,........some have even suggested that
> I
> > > am producing it
> > > myself. Infront of this group, the answer is
> > > definitly, "No",......I
> > > do not make colonial forgeries,........but do
> I
> > > understand on how
> > > they are produced? Well, yes most definitly
> > > because I had taken many
> > > years and alot of money to purposely buy these
> to
> > > study and to
> > > record them. 30 years ago, nobody knew
> anything
> > > about them, just
> > > that they were not anything specials, but a
> > > beginners "toy" was
> > > paraphrased. 2 1/2 years ago, PCGS had heard
> of
> > > me from someone,
> > > they contacted me to send me a coin for my
> > > opinion. It was a New
> > > England XII and struck 95% true to the
> genuoine
> > > coins. Once I
> > > recieved the coin, I had 2 days to make a
> > > determination. However, it
> > > was less than half an hour after I recieved
> the
> > > coin, "no
> > > good",.........I return it with 7 pages of
> > > photographs and
> > > documentation on the known die marriages for
> this
> > > series, the wieght
> > > and size and all specs. It turned out that
> around
> > > 5 months or so
> > > later, this coin was submitted to PCGS by a
> C-4
> > > member at the
> > > time,.............but the whole trick of this
> > > matter was that I
> > > onced owned that very same forgery and had
> sold it
> > > on ebay for
> > > around $70 under my old name, bbaycolony. If I
> had
> > > the talent and
> > > the ability to produce a rare forgery, then
> > > wouldn't it be to my
> > > advantage to take alittle more time and
> patience
> > > and produce a die
> > > that will exactly match 100% of a rare
> > > colonial?,......so, when
> > > people in colonials hear of me perhaps
> spending
> > > $4000 on a unknown
> > > and unauthenticated coin that could be a
> possible
> > > forgery, then some
> > > may have a jealous motive or something to
> > > discourage proper
> > > examination and "thwart" an authenticity
> attempt?
> > > Possibilities my
> > > friend,...........I have to look at the broad
> > > spectrum not only for
> > > me, Mario, but for many years I have always
> > > question several coins
> > > suchs
> > > > 1.) New Jersery coppers from the Maris 79-ee
> to
> > > the Maris 85-nn
> > > > 2.) Connecticut coppers from the Bundtown
> Mints,
>=20
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