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- From njraywms@optonline.net Fri Sep 10 04:06:00 2004
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Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 07:07:49 -0400
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From: Ray Williams <njraywms@optonline.net>
Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Re: WM under Sprig New Jersey
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Roger,
Interesting information I didn't know. I should read more about the history of the time period, and about the Revolutionary War. Your post should be consideed for the newsletter...
Ray
----- Original Message -----
From: Roger Siboni
To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, September 10, 2004 12:10 AM
Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Re: WM under Sprig New Jersey
John,
I think in the case of RI Ship Tokens, the progression is "vlugtende", scrapped off vlugtende, and then wreath over scrapped off vlugtende. That is differant than WM, Sprig over WM, and then sharp and clear sprig with no WM.
Also, there are some that think "vlugtende" (fleeing) WAS meant for the obverse as well as the reverse of the RI Ship Token. About one year after the Battle of Rhode Island, Admiral Howe was vlugtending his behind out of Rhode Island as the French were (finally) arriving. In other words, it was a Dutch spoof on both the American Colonialists and the English. Arguably, they scrapped off the obverse vlugtende because their was a more ready market for these tokens in England.
I really don't want to get into a zinc Metalurgy discussion about this right now, but I thought I would at least share another view.
Roger S.
johnmenc@optonline.net wrote:
The WM was under the obverse without the 1/2 to this Rarity 9 WM
example. Both were with an obverse 62. Several weeks had gone by
since the WM Higgins find and Higgins had the usual "grin" on his
face whenever he saw a C4'er walk by or when anyone was examining
his great find (rightfully so) ... so anyway ... I was walking by
maybe two Parsipanny shows later and someone who knew him mentioned
to me Higgins found something very unusual associated with this
R9 ... so I walked over ... and there was an example with WM (very
faint but present around 50% or so) under the sprig for a Morristown
M.62 obverse NJ. After his find what would be the next logical
cherrypicking step or action? ... I checked my entire collection ...
and NOTHING. I searched for a year ... and NOTHING. Then after a
year ... I stopped looking ... I think if everyone looked for a
year ... R6+ would not be an overstatement? for this M.62 WM under
the sprig sub-variety.
HMMMMM .... Rhode Island Ship Token has this type of effect ...
Although made in England, the legends on the token are in Dutch.
Originally the engraver mistakenly included the word "vlugtende"
(fleeing) on the obverse of the coin under the flagship. Clearly
this was meant to be on the reverse of the token which depicts the
fleeing Continental troops. This error was soon discovered and had
to be remedied, as one could easily interpret the obverse to mean
the Admiral's flagship was fleeing! The obverse die was recut so
that a wreath design replaced the offending word under the flagship.
Also, the word "vlugtende" was scrapped off the remaining
undistributed stock of the token that already been made.
The die progression seems logical?: WM, Sprig over WM then M.62 with
no signs of WM.
--- In colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com, Ray Williams <njraywms@o...>
wrote:
> John,
> Can you give us the present owner of the two coins you refer
to, or a plated auction appearance? I'd like to see an example. Do
you recall if the obverse with WM under the sprigs was a 60, 61, 62
or 63?
> Ray
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: johnmenc@o...
> To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2004 9:33 AM
> Subject: [Colonial Numismatics] Re: WM New Jersey
>
>
> As I mentioned earlier having seen two? examples with WM under
the
> sprigs it was Higgins ALSO who came up with one of these
examples a
> month or two after his discovery. All I am saying is everyone
should
> check there Morristown pieces in the sprig area with a loop ...
to
> be honest ... I have forgotten to do this lately (i.e., last
couple
> of years).
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Roger,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2> Interesting information I didn't
know. I should read more about the history of the time period, and about
the Revolutionary War. Your post should be consideed for the
newsletter...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Ray</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=mantoloking2002@yahoo.com
href="mailto:mantoloking2002@yahoo.com">Roger Siboni</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
href="mailto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com">colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, September 10, 2004 12:10
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Re:
WM under Sprig New Jersey</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>John,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I think in the case of RI Ship Tokens, the progression is "vlugtende",
scrapped off vlugtende, and then wreath over scrapped off vlugtende. That is
differant than WM, Sprig over WM, and then sharp and clear sprig with no
WM.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Also, there are some that think "vlugtende" (fleeing) WAS meant for
the obverse as well as the reverse of the RI Ship Token. About one year after
the Battle of Rhode Island, Admiral Howe was vlugtending his behind out of
Rhode Island as the French were (finally) arriving. In other words, it was a
Dutch spoof on both the American Colonialists and the English. Arguably, they
scrapped off the obverse vlugtende because their was a more ready market for
these tokens in England.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I really don't want to get into a zinc Metalurgy discussion about
this right now, but I thought I would at least share another view.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Roger S. <BR><BR><B><I>johnmenc@optonline.net</I></B> wrote:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid"><TT>The
WM was under the obverse without the 1/2 to this Rarity 9 WM <BR>example.
Both were with an obverse 62. Several weeks had gone by <BR>since the WM
Higgins find and Higgins had the usual "grin" on his <BR>face whenever he
saw a C4'er walk by or when anyone was examining <BR>his great find
(rightfully so) ... so anyway ... I was walking by <BR>maybe two Parsipanny
shows later and someone who knew him mentioned <BR>to me Higgins found
something very unusual associated with this <BR>R9 ... so I walked over ...
and there was an example with WM (very <BR>faint but present around 50% or
so) under the sprig for a Morristown <BR>M.62 obverse NJ. After his find
what would be the next logical <BR>cherrypicking step or action? ... I
checked my entire collection ... <BR>and NOTHING. I searched for a year ...
and NOTHING. Then after a <BR>year ... I stopped looking ... I think if
everyone looked for a <BR>year ... R6+ would not be an overstatement? for
this M.62 WM under <BR>the sprig sub-variety.<BR>HMMMMM .... Rhode Island
Ship Token has this type of effect ... <BR>Although made in England, the
legends on the token are in Dutch. <BR>Originally the engraver mistakenly
included the word "vlugtende" <BR>(fleeing) on the obverse of the coin under
the flagship. Clearly <BR>this was meant to be on the reverse of the token
which depicts the <BR>fleeing Continental troops. This error was soon
discovered and had <BR>to be remedied, as one could easily interpret the
obverse to mean <BR>the Admiral's flagship was fleeing! The obverse die was
recut so <BR>that a wreath design replaced the offending word under the
flagship. <BR>Also, the word "vlugtende" was scrapped off the remaining
<BR>undistributed stock of the token that already been made.<BR>The die
progression seems logical?: WM, Sprig over WM then M.62 with <BR>no signs of
WM.<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>--- In colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com, Ray Williams
<njraywms@o...> <BR>wrote:<BR>>
John,<BR>> Can you give us the present owner of
the two coins you refer <BR>to, or a plated auction appearance? I'd
like to see an example. Do <BR>you recall if the obverse with WM under
the sprigs was a 60, 61, 62 <BR>or 63?<BR>> Ray<BR>> -----
Original Message ----- <BR>> From: johnmenc@o...
<BR>> To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com <BR>>
Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2004 9:33 AM<BR>> Subject:
[Colonial Numismatics] Re: WM New Jersey<BR>> <BR>>
<BR>> As I mentioned earlier having seen two? examples with
WM under <BR>the <BR>> sprigs it was Higgins ALSO who came up
with one of these <BR>examples a <BR>> month or two after his
discovery. All I am saying is everyone <BR>should <BR>> check
there Morristown pieces in the sprig area with a loop ... <BR>to
<BR>> be honest ... I have forgotten to do this lately (i.e.,
last <BR>couple <BR>> of years).<BR><BR></TT><BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P>
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