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- From taxi_steve929@yahoo.com Fri Sep 10 05:04:32 2004
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Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 12:04:17 -0000
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From: "Steve Frank" <taxi_steve929@yahoo.com>
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Subject: [Colonial Numismatics] Re: WM under Sprig New Jersey
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This is funny. Years ago when I ordered my complete set of the
colonial newsletter, there was a duplicate issue, which I pulled out,
but could not throw away. I have seen the front page just about
everyday as it sits next to the stack of CNL's I have.(At times it
has been elsewhere...but always in view) I have never read this
issue. Volume 30, No. 1, serial No. 84, sequential page 1128. "The
Appleton - Massachusetts Historical Society Rhode Island Ship Token
with Vlugtende" by Michael Hodder (TN-129). There is a large picture
of the ship token with Vlugtende. I will read it this
weekend....definitley. I love reading what Mike writes anyway, and
now I have some brain fodder going into the article.....fodder for
Hodder....this is getting to weird...should be great reading though.
Has the CNL ever thought of re-running some of there old tech
newsletters when they are short of material. Even if we have the
complete set, there are very few who will just read them from start
to finish, but rather use them as a reference and look up what is of
interest at a particular time.....just a thought.
Steve
--- In colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com, Ray Williams <njraywms@o...>
wrote:
> Roger,
> Interesting information I didn't know. I should read more
about the history of the time period, and about the Revolutionary
War. Your post should be consideed for the newsletter...
> Ray
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Roger Siboni
> To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, September 10, 2004 12:10 AM
> Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Re: WM under Sprig New Jersey
>
>
> John,
>
> I think in the case of RI Ship Tokens, the progression
is "vlugtende", scrapped off vlugtende, and then wreath over scrapped
off vlugtende. That is differant than WM, Sprig over WM, and then
sharp and clear sprig with no WM.
>
> Also, there are some that think "vlugtende" (fleeing) WAS meant
for the obverse as well as the reverse of the RI Ship Token. About
one year after the Battle of Rhode Island, Admiral Howe was
vlugtending his behind out of Rhode Island as the French were
(finally) arriving. In other words, it was a Dutch spoof on both the
American Colonialists and the English. Arguably, they scrapped off
the obverse vlugtende because their was a more ready market for these
tokens in England.
>
> I really don't want to get into a zinc Metalurgy discussion about
this right now, but I thought I would at least share another view.
>
> Roger S.
>
> johnmenc@o... wrote:
> The WM was under the obverse without the 1/2 to this Rarity 9
WM
> example. Both were with an obverse 62. Several weeks had gone
by
> since the WM Higgins find and Higgins had the usual "grin" on
his
> face whenever he saw a C4'er walk by or when anyone was
examining
> his great find (rightfully so) ... so anyway ... I was walking
by
> maybe two Parsipanny shows later and someone who knew him
mentioned
> to me Higgins found something very unusual associated with this
> R9 ... so I walked over ... and there was an example with WM
(very
> faint but present around 50% or so) under the sprig for a
Morristown
> M.62 obverse NJ. After his find what would be the next logical
> cherrypicking step or action? ... I checked my entire
collection ...
> and NOTHING. I searched for a year ... and NOTHING. Then after
a
> year ... I stopped looking ... I think if everyone looked for a
> year ... R6+ would not be an overstatement? for this M.62 WM
under
> the sprig sub-variety.
> HMMMMM .... Rhode Island Ship Token has this type of effect ...
> Although made in England, the legends on the token are in
Dutch.
> Originally the engraver mistakenly included the
word "vlugtende"
> (fleeing) on the obverse of the coin under the flagship.
Clearly
> this was meant to be on the reverse of the token which depicts
the
> fleeing Continental troops. This error was soon discovered and
had
> to be remedied, as one could easily interpret the obverse to
mean
> the Admiral's flagship was fleeing! The obverse die was recut
so
> that a wreath design replaced the offending word under the
flagship.
> Also, the word "vlugtende" was scrapped off the remaining
> undistributed stock of the token that already been made.
> The die progression seems logical?: WM, Sprig over WM then M.62
with
> no signs of WM.
>
>
>
>
> --- In colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com, Ray Williams
<njraywms@o...>
> wrote:
> > John,
> > Can you give us the present owner of the two coins you
refer
> to, or a plated auction appearance? I'd like to see an
example. Do
> you recall if the obverse with WM under the sprigs was a 60,
61, 62
> or 63?
> > Ray
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: johnmenc@o...
> > To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2004 9:33 AM
> > Subject: [Colonial Numismatics] Re: WM New Jersey
> >
> >
> > As I mentioned earlier having seen two? examples with WM
under
> the
> > sprigs it was Higgins ALSO who came up with one of these
> examples a
> > month or two after his discovery. All I am saying is
everyone
> should
> > check there Morristown pieces in the sprig area with a
loop ...
> to
> > be honest ... I have forgotten to do this lately (i.e.,
last
> couple
> > of years).
>
>
>
>
>
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