WM under Sprig New Jersey

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Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Re: WM under Sprig New Jersey
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Steve - - et al

The present CNLF Phoenix Program planning includes:

(1) Incorporating all of the appropriate CNL articles into the
various eSIG FILES Libraries, as well as other appropriate
articles, etc. For example the Blacksmith eSIG FILES Library now
includes every available article on Blacksmiths that we can
locate and almost a complete multiple set of "Blacksmith" images.

(2) Publishing JEANe issues using consolidated materials from
various CNL back issues. As well as NEW, previously unpublished,
materials.

(3) All articles are planned for Adobe PDF format..

Just takes time. eSIG members have been exceptionally helpful in
accomplishing our objectives. Thanks to all!

Read about JEANe and eSIG concepts in the Library (FILES) section
of each eSIG.

Jim/CNLF

==============================

Steve Frank wrote:

> This is funny. Years ago when I ordered my complete set of the
>
> colonial newsletter, there was a duplicate issue, which I
> pulled out,
> but could not throw away. I have seen the front page just
> about
> everyday as it sits next to the stack of CNL's I have.(At times
> it
> has been elsewhere...but always in view) I have never read
> this
> issue. Volume 30, No. 1, serial No. 84, sequential page 1128.
> "The
> Appleton - Massachusetts Historical Society Rhode Island Ship
> Token
> with Vlugtende" by Michael Hodder (TN-129). There is a large
> picture
> of the ship token with Vlugtende. I will read it this
> weekend....definitley. I love reading what Mike writes anyway,
> and
> now I have some brain fodder going into the article.....fodder
> for
> Hodder....this is getting to weird...should be great reading
> though.
>
> Has the CNL ever thought of re-running some of there old tech
> newsletters when they are short of material. Even if we have
> the
> complete set, there are very few who will just read them from
> start
> to finish, but rather use them as a reference and look up what
> is of
> interest at a particular time.....just a thought.
>
> Steve
>
>
>
> --- In colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com, Ray Williams
> <njraywms@o...>
> wrote:
> > Roger,
> > Interesting information I didn't know. I should read
> more
> about the history of the time period, and about the
> Revolutionary
> War. Your post should be consideed for the newsletter...
> > Ray
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Roger Siboni
> > To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Friday, September 10, 2004 12:10 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Re: WM under Sprig New
> Jersey
> >
> >
> > John,
> >
> > I think in the case of RI Ship Tokens, the progression
> is "vlugtende", scrapped off vlugtende, and then wreath over
> scrapped
> off vlugtende. That is differant than WM, Sprig over WM, and
> then
> sharp and clear sprig with no WM.
> >
> > Also, there are some that think "vlugtende" (fleeing) WAS
> meant
> for the obverse as well as the reverse of the RI Ship Token.
> About
> one year after the Battle of Rhode Island, Admiral Howe was
> vlugtending his behind out of Rhode Island as the French were
> (finally) arriving. In other words, it was a Dutch spoof on
> both the
> American Colonialists and the English. Arguably, they scrapped
> off
> the obverse vlugtende because their was a more ready market for
> these
> tokens in England.
> >
> > I really don't want to get into a zinc Metalurgy discussion
> about
> this right now, but I thought I would at least share another
> view.
> >
> > Roger S.
> >
> > johnmenc@o... wrote:
> > The WM was under the obverse without the 1/2 to this
> Rarity 9
> WM
> > example. Both were with an obverse 62. Several weeks had
> gone
> by
> > since the WM Higgins find and Higgins had the usual
> "grin" on
> his
> > face whenever he saw a C4'er walk by or when anyone was
> examining
> > his great find (rightfully so) ... so anyway ... I was
> walking
> by
> > maybe two Parsipanny shows later and someone who knew him
>
> mentioned
> > to me Higgins found something very unusual associated
> with this
> > R9 ... so I walked over ... and there was an example with
> WM
> (very
> > faint but present around 50% or so) under the sprig for a
>
> Morristown
> > M.62 obverse NJ. After his find what would be the next
> logical
> > cherrypicking step or action? ... I checked my entire
> collection ...
> > and NOTHING. I searched for a year ... and NOTHING. Then
> after
> a
> > year ... I stopped looking ... I think if everyone looked
> for a
> > year ... R6+ would not be an overstatement? for this M.62
> WM
> under
> > the sprig sub-variety.
> > HMMMMM .... Rhode Island Ship Token has this type of
> effect ...
> > Although made in England, the legends on the token are in
>
> Dutch.
> > Originally the engraver mistakenly included the
> word "vlugtende"
> > (fleeing) on the obverse of the coin under the flagship.
> Clearly
> > this was meant to be on the reverse of the token which
> depicts
> the
> > fleeing Continental troops. This error was soon
> discovered and
> had
> > to be remedied, as one could easily interpret the obverse
> to
> mean
> > the Admiral's flagship was fleeing! The obverse die was
> recut
> so
> > that a wreath design replaced the offending word under
> the
> flagship.
> > Also, the word "vlugtende" was scrapped off the remaining
>
> > undistributed stock of the token that already been made.
> > The die progression seems logical?: WM, Sprig over WM
> then M.62
> with
> > no signs of WM.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com, Ray Williams
> <njraywms@o...>
> > wrote:
> > > John,
> > > Can you give us the present owner of the two coins
> you
> refer
> > to, or a plated auction appearance? I'd like to see an
> example. Do
> > you recall if the obverse with WM under the sprigs was a
> 60,
> 61, 62
> > or 63?
> > > Ray
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: johnmenc@o...
> > > To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2004 9:33 AM
> > > Subject: [Colonial Numismatics] Re: WM New Jersey
> > >
> > >
> > > As I mentioned earlier having seen two? examples with
> WM
> under
> > the
> > > sprigs it was Higgins ALSO who came up with one of
> these
> > examples a
> > > month or two after his discovery. All I am saying is
> everyone
> > should
> > > check there Morristown pieces in the sprig area with
> a
> loop ...
> > to
> > > be honest ... I have forgotten to do this lately
> (i.e.,
> last
> > couple
> > > of years).
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> ----------
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages!
> > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> > ADVERTISEMENT
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> ----------
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/colonial-coins/
> >
> > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > colonial-coins-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
> Terms of
> Service.
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> * To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/colonial-coins/
>
> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> colonial-coins-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
> of Service.
>

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Steve - - et al
The present CNLF Phoenix Program planning
includes:
(1) Incorporating all of the appropriate CNL articles into
the various eSIG FILES Libraries, as well as other appropriate articles,
etc. For example the Blacksmith eSIG FILES Library now includes every
available article on Blacksmiths that we can locate and almost a complete
multiple set of "Blacksmith" images.
(2) Publishing JEANe issues using consolidated materials
from various CNL back issues. As well as NEW, previously unpublished,
materials.
(3) All articles are planned for Adobe PDF format..
Just takes time. eSIG members have been exceptionally helpful
in accomplishing our objectives. Thanks to all!
Read about JEANe and eSIG concepts in the Library (FILES) section
of each eSIG.
Jim/CNLF
==============================
Steve Frank wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE><tt>This is funny. Years ago when I ordered
my complete set of the</tt>
 <tt>colonial newsletter, there was a duplicate issue, which I pulled
out,</tt>
 <tt>but could not throw away. I have seen the front page just
about</tt>
 <tt>everyday as it sits next to the stack of CNL's I have.(At times
it</tt>
 <tt>has been elsewhere...but always in view) I have never read
this</tt>
 <tt>issue. Volume 30, No. 1, serial No. 84, sequential page 1128.
"The</tt>
 <tt>Appleton - Massachusetts Historical Society Rhode Island Ship Token</tt>
 <tt>with Vlugtende" by Michael Hodder (TN-129). There is a large
picture</tt>
 <tt>of the ship token with Vlugtende. I will read it this</tt>
 <tt>weekend....definitley. I love reading what Mike writes anyway,
and</tt>
 <tt>now I have some brain fodder going into the article.....fodder
for</tt>
 <tt>Hodder....this is getting to weird...should be great reading though.</tt>
<tt>Has the CNL ever thought of re-running some of there old tech</tt>
 <tt>newsletters when they are short of material. Even if we have
the</tt>
 <tt>complete set, there are very few who will just read them from start</tt>
 <tt>to finish, but rather use them as a reference and look up what
is of</tt>
 <tt>interest at a particular time.....just a thought.</tt>
<tt> Steve</tt>
 
 
<tt>--- In colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com, Ray Williams <njraywms@o...></tt>
 <tt>wrote:</tt>
 <tt>> Roger,</tt>
 <tt>> Interesting information I didn't know.
I should read more</tt>
 <tt>about the history of the time period, and about the Revolutionary</tt>
 <tt>War. Your post should be consideed for the newsletter...</tt>
 <tt>> Ray</tt>
 <tt>> ----- Original Message -----</tt>
 <tt>> From: Roger Siboni</tt>
 <tt>> To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com</tt>
 <tt>> Sent: Friday, September 10, 2004 12:10 AM</tt>
 <tt>> Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Re: WM under
Sprig New Jersey</tt>
 <tt>></tt>
 <tt>></tt>
 <tt>> John,</tt>
 <tt>></tt>
 <tt>> I think in the case of RI Ship Tokens, the progression</tt>
 <tt>is "vlugtende", scrapped off vlugtende, and then wreath over scrapped</tt>
 <tt>off vlugtende. That is differant than WM, Sprig over WM, and then</tt>
 <tt>sharp and clear sprig with no WM.</tt>
 <tt>></tt>
 <tt>> Also, there are some that think "vlugtende" (fleeing)
WAS meant</tt>
 <tt>for the obverse as well as the reverse of the RI Ship Token. About</tt>
 <tt>one year after the Battle of Rhode Island, Admiral Howe was</tt>
 <tt>vlugtending his behind out of Rhode Island as the French were</tt>
 <tt>(finally) arriving. In other words, it was a Dutch spoof on both
the</tt>
 <tt>American Colonialists and the English. Arguably, they scrapped
off</tt>
 <tt>the obverse vlugtende because their was a more ready market for
these</tt>
 <tt>tokens in England.</tt>
 <tt>></tt>
 <tt>> I really don't want to get into a zinc Metalurgy
discussion about</tt>
 <tt>this right now, but I thought I would at least share another view.</tt>
 <tt>></tt>
 <tt>> Roger S.</tt>
 <tt>></tt>
 <tt>> johnmenc@o... wrote:</tt>
 <tt>> The WM was under the obverse without
the 1/2 to this Rarity 9</tt>
 <tt>WM</tt>
 <tt>> example. Both were with an obverse 62.
Several weeks had gone</tt>
 <tt>by</tt>
 <tt>> since the WM Higgins find and Higgins
had the usual "grin" on</tt>
 <tt>his</tt>
 <tt>> face whenever he saw a C4'er walk by
or when anyone was</tt>
 <tt>examining</tt>
 <tt>> his great find (rightfully so) ... so
anyway ... I was walking</tt>
 <tt>by</tt>
 <tt>> maybe two Parsipanny shows later and
someone who knew him</tt>
 <tt>mentioned</tt>
 <tt>> to me Higgins found something very unusual
associated with this</tt>
 <tt>> R9 ... so I walked over ... and there
was an example with WM</tt>
 <tt>(very</tt>
 <tt>> faint but present around 50% or so) under
the sprig for a</tt>
 <tt>Morristown</tt>
 <tt>> M.62 obverse NJ. After his find what
would be the next logical</tt>
 <tt>> cherrypicking step or action? ... I checked
my entire</tt>
 <tt>collection ...</tt>
 <tt>> and NOTHING. I searched for a year ...
and NOTHING. Then after</tt>
 <tt>a</tt>
 <tt>> year ... I stopped looking ... I think
if everyone looked for a</tt>
 <tt>> year ... R6+ would not be an overstatement?
for this M.62 WM</tt>
 <tt>under</tt>
 <tt>> the sprig sub-variety.</tt>
 <tt>> HMMMMM .... Rhode Island Ship Token has
this type of effect ...</tt>
 <tt>> Although made in England, the legends
on the token are in</tt>
 <tt>Dutch.</tt>
 <tt>> Originally the engraver mistakenly included
the</tt>
 <tt>word "vlugtende"</tt>
 <tt>> (fleeing) on the obverse of the coin
under the flagship.</tt>
 <tt>Clearly</tt>
 <tt>> this was meant to be on the reverse of
the token which depicts</tt>
 <tt>the</tt>
 <tt>> fleeing Continental troops. This error
was soon discovered and</tt>
 <tt>had</tt>
 <tt>> to be remedied, as one could easily interpret
the obverse to</tt>
 <tt>mean</tt>
 <tt>> the Admiral's flagship was fleeing! The
obverse die was recut</tt>
 <tt>so</tt>
 <tt>> that a wreath design replaced the offending
word under the</tt>
 <tt>flagship.</tt>
 <tt>> Also, the word "vlugtende" was scrapped
off the remaining</tt>
 <tt>> undistributed stock of the token that
already been made.</tt>
 <tt>> The die progression seems logical?: WM,
Sprig over WM then M.62</tt>
 <tt>with</tt>
 <tt>> no signs of WM.</tt>
 <tt>></tt>
 <tt>></tt>
 <tt>></tt>
 <tt>></tt>
 <tt>> --- In colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com,
Ray Williams</tt>
 <tt><njraywms@o...></tt>
 <tt>> wrote:</tt>
 <tt>> > John,</tt>
 <tt>> > Can you give
us the present owner of the two coins you</tt>
 <tt>refer</tt>
 <tt>> to, or a plated auction appearance?
I'd like to see an</tt>
 <tt>example. Do</tt>
 <tt>> you recall if the obverse with WM under
the sprigs was a 60,</tt>
 <tt>61, 62</tt>
 <tt>> or 63?</tt>
 <tt>> > Ray</tt>
 <tt>> > ----- Original Message
-----</tt>
 <tt>> > From: johnmenc@o...</tt>
 <tt>> > To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com</tt>
 <tt>> > Sent: Thursday, September
09, 2004 9:33 AM</tt>
 <tt>> > Subject: [Colonial Numismatics]
Re: WM New Jersey</tt>
 <tt>> ></tt>
 <tt>> ></tt>
 <tt>> > As I mentioned earlier
having seen two? examples with WM</tt>
 <tt>under</tt>
 <tt>> the</tt>
 <tt>> > sprigs it was Higgins ALSO
who came up with one of these</tt>
 <tt>> examples a</tt>
 <tt>> > month or two after his
discovery. All I am saying is</tt>
 <tt>everyone</tt>
 <tt>> should</tt>
 <tt>> > check there Morristown
pieces in the sprig area with a</tt>
 <tt>loop ...</tt>
 <tt>> to</tt>
 <tt>> > be honest ... I have forgotten
to do this lately (i.e.,</tt>
 <tt>last</tt>
 <tt>> couple</tt>
 <tt>> > of years).</tt>
 <tt>></tt>
 <tt>></tt>
 <tt>></tt>
 <tt>></tt>
 <tt>></tt>
 <tt>> --------------------------------------------------------------------</tt>
 <tt>----------</tt>
 <tt>> Do you Yahoo!?</tt>
 <tt>> New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages!</tt>
 <tt>> Yahoo! Groups
Sponsor</tt>
 <tt>>
ADVERTISEMENT</tt>
 <tt>></tt>
 <tt>></tt>
 <tt>></tt>
 <tt>></tt>
 <tt>></tt>
 <tt>> --------------------------------------------------------------------</tt>
 <tt>----------</tt>
 <tt>> Yahoo! Groups Links</tt>
 <tt>></tt>
 <tt>> a.. To visit your group on the web, go
to:</tt>
 <tt>> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/colonial-coins/">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/colonial-coins/</a></tt>
 <tt>></tt>
 <tt>> b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send
an email to:</tt>
 <tt>> colonial-coins-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com</tt>
 <tt>></tt>
 <tt>> c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject
to the Yahoo! Terms of</tt>
 <tt>Service.</tt>
 
</blockquote>
</html>

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Veröffentlichungsdatum

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