WM under Sprig New Jersey

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From: "J.C.SPILMAN" <JCSpilman1@Comcast.NET>
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Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Re: WM under Sprig New Jersey
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Some trivia - -

By the time Augustas B. Sage came along with his token series,
die sinkers had learned to fix mislettered dies. I have a
beautiful pair of Sage tokens - I do not recall which series they
are in - but a letter in one of the legends has been corrected
from the wrong to the correct letter. A before and after pair of
tokens. Under a microscope one can really appreciate the
precision work that was accomplished on the die. Do you know of
any other before and after coinage, token or medal series that
have die corrections?

Jim/CNLF

============================

Mike Hodder wrote:

> No problem with the concept, just the understanding of
> it:
>
> step 1: vlugtende in the die on the obverse by mistake
> step 2: oh sh*t, what'd I do?
> step 3: better scrape the word off the tokens we've
> struck
> step 4; sheesh, this takes time
> step 5: brainstorm! let's punch some random floral
> elements over that offensive vlugtende in the die
> step 6: sigh of relief, we're cookin now
>
> Mike H
>
> --- "J.C.SPILMAN" <JCSpilman1@Comcast.NET> wrote:
>
> > A problem here with the concept. "vlugtende" was
> > raised
> > lettering on the coin - hence incuse on the die.
> > One does not
> > just "scrape off" incuse lettering without changing
> > the
> > surrounding field level of the specimen.
> >
> > Jim/CNLF
> >
> > ======================
> >
> > johnmenc@optonline.net wrote:
> >
> > > Yes - Different in the die progression but
> > similar in the
> > > sense that
> > > a motif is attempting to cover some symbols
> > (letter or
> > > numerals) on
> > > a numismatic item. Can we think of other motif
> > covering
> > > examples? ... anywhere.
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com, Roger
> > Siboni
> > > <mantoloking2002@y...> wrote:
> > > > John,
> > > >
> > > > I think in the case of RI Ship Tokens, the
> > progression
> > > is "vlugtende", scrapped off vlugtende, and then
> > wreath over
> > > scrapped off vlugtende. That is differant than WM,
> > Sprig over
> > > WM,
> > > and then sharp and clear sprig with no WM.
> > > >
> > > > Also, there are some that think "vlugtende"
> > (fleeing) WAS
> > > meant
> > > for the obverse as well as the reverse of the RI
> > Ship Token.
> > > About
> > > one year after the Battle of Rhode Island, Admiral
> > Howe was
> > > vlugtending his behind out of Rhode Island as the
> > French were
> > > (finally) arriving. In other words, it was a Dutch
> > spoof on
> > > both the
> > > American Colonialists and the English. Arguably,
> > they scrapped
> > > off
> > > the obverse vlugtende because their was a more
> > ready market for
> > >
> > > these tokens in England.
> > > >
> > > > I really don't want to get into a zinc Metalurgy
> > discussion
> > > about
> > > this right now, but I thought I would at least
> > share another
> > > view.
> > > >
> > > > Roger S.
> > > >
> > > > johnmenc@o... wrote:
> > > > The WM was under the obverse without the 1/2 to
> > this Rarity 9
> > > WM
> > > > example. Both were with an obverse 62. Several
> > weeks had gone
> > > by
> > > > since the WM Higgins find and Higgins had the
> > usual "grin" on
> > > his
> > > > face whenever he saw a C4'er walk by or when
> > anyone was
> > > examining
> > > > his great find (rightfully so) ... so anyway ...
> > I was
> > > walking by
> > > > maybe two Parsipanny shows later and someone who
> > knew him
> > > mentioned
> > > > to me Higgins found something very unusual
> > associated with
> > > this
> > > > R9 ... so I walked over ... and there was an
> > example with WM
> > > (very
> > > > faint but present around 50% or so) under the
> > sprig for a
> > > Morristown
> > > > M.62 obverse NJ. After his find what would be
> > the next
> > > logical
> > > > cherrypicking step or action? ... I checked my
> > entire
> > > collection ...
> > > > and NOTHING. I searched for a year ... and
> > NOTHING. Then
> > > after a
> > > > year ... I stopped looking ... I think if
> > everyone looked for
> > > a
> > > > year ... R6+ would not be an overstatement? for
> > this M.62 WM
> > > under
> > > > the sprig sub-variety.
> > > > HMMMMM .... Rhode Island Ship Token has this
> > type of effect
> > > ...
> > > > Although made in England, the legends on the
> > token are in
> > > Dutch.
> > > > Originally the engraver mistakenly included the
> > word
> > > "vlugtende"
> > > > (fleeing) on the obverse of the coin under the
> > flagship.
> > > Clearly
> > > > this was meant to be on the reverse of the token
> > which
> > > depicts the
> > > > fleeing Continental troops. This error was soon
> > discovered
> > > and had
> > > > to be remedied, as one could easily interpret
> > the obverse to
> > > mean
> > > > the Admiral's flagship was fleeing! The obverse
> > die was recut
> > > so
> > > > that a wreath design replaced the offending word
> > under the
> > > flagship.
> > > > Also, the word "vlugtende" was scrapped off the
> > remaining
> > > > undistributed stock of the token that already
> > been made.
> > > > The die progression seems logical?: WM, Sprig
> > over WM then
> > > M.62
> > > with
> > > > no signs of WM.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com, Ray
> > Williams
> > > <njraywms@o...>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > John,
> > > > > Can you give us the present owner of the
> > two coins you
> > > refer
> > > > to, or a plated auction appearance? I'd like to
> > see an
> > > example.
> > > Do
> > > > you recall if the obverse with WM under the
> > sprigs was a 60,
> > > 61,
> > > 62
> > > > or 63?
> > > > > Ray
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: johnmenc@o...
> > > > > To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2004 9:33 AM
> > > > > Subject: [Colonial Numismatics] Re: WM New
> > Jersey
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > As I mentioned earlier having seen two?
> > examples with WM
> > > under
> > > > the
> > > > > sprigs it was Higgins ALSO who came up with
> > one of these
> > > > examples a
> > > > > month or two after his discovery. All I am
> > saying is
> > > everyone
> > > > should
> > > > > check there Morristown pieces in the sprig
> > area with a
> > > loop ...
> > > > to
> > > > > be honest ... I have forgotten to do this
> > lately (i.e.,
> > > last
> > > > couple
> > > > > of years).
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ---------------------------------
> > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > >
> > > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
> > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/colonial-coins/
> > > >
> > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email
> > to:
> > > > colonial-coins-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > > >
> > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
> > Yahoo! Terms
> > > of
> > > Service.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
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> ---------------------------------------------------------------
>
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> > >
> > > * To visit your group on the web, go to:
> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/colonial-coins/
> > >
> > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email
> > to:
> > > colonial-coins-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > >
> > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
> > Yahoo! Terms
> > > of Service.
> > >
> >
>
>
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>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> * To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/colonial-coins/
>
> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> colonial-coins-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
> of Service.
>

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Some trivia - -
By the time Augustas B. Sage came along with his token series, die sinkers
had learned to fix mislettered dies. I have a beautiful pair of Sage
tokens - I do not recall which series they are in - but a letter in one
of the legends has been corrected from the wrong to the correct letter.
A before and after pair of tokens. Under a microscope one can really appreciate
the precision work that was accomplished on the die. Do you
know of any other before and after coinage, token or medal series that
have die corrections?
Jim/CNLF
============================
Mike Hodder wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE> <tt>No problem with the concept, just the understanding
of</tt>
 <tt>it:</tt>
<tt>step 1: vlugtende in the die on the obverse by mistake</tt>
 <tt>step 2: oh sh*t, what'd I do?</tt>
 <tt>step 3: better scrape the word off the tokens we've</tt>
 <tt>struck</tt>
 <tt>step 4; sheesh, this takes time</tt>
 <tt>step 5: brainstorm! let's punch some random floral</tt>
 <tt>elements over that offensive vlugtende in the die</tt>
 <tt>step 6: sigh of relief, we're cookin now</tt>
<tt>Mike H</tt>
<tt>--- "J.C.SPILMAN" <JCSpilman1@Comcast.NET> wrote:</tt>
<tt>> A problem here with the concept. "vlugtende" was</tt>
 <tt>> raised</tt>
 <tt>> lettering on the coin - hence incuse on the die.</tt>
 <tt>> One does not</tt>
 <tt>> just "scrape off" incuse lettering without changing</tt>
 <tt>> the</tt>
 <tt>> surrounding field level of the specimen.</tt>
 <tt>></tt>
 <tt>> Jim/CNLF</tt>
 <tt>></tt>
 <tt>> ======================</tt>
 <tt>></tt>
 <tt>> johnmenc@optonline.net wrote:</tt>
 <tt>></tt>
 <tt>> > Yes - Different in the die progression but</tt>
 <tt>> similar in the</tt>
 <tt>> > sense that</tt>
 <tt>> > a motif is attempting to cover some symbols</tt>
 <tt>> (letter or</tt>
 <tt>> > numerals) on</tt>
 <tt>> > a numismatic item. Can we think of other motif</tt>
 <tt>> covering</tt>
 <tt>> > examples? ... anywhere.</tt>
 <tt>> ></tt>
 <tt>> ></tt>
 <tt>> > --- In colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com, Roger</tt>
 <tt>> Siboni</tt>
 <tt>> > <mantoloking2002@y...> wrote:</tt>
 <tt>> > > John,</tt>
 <tt>> > ></tt>
 <tt>> > > I think in the case of RI Ship Tokens, the</tt>
 <tt>> progression</tt>
 <tt>> > is "vlugtende", scrapped off vlugtende, and then</tt>
 <tt>> wreath over</tt>
 <tt>> > scrapped off vlugtende. That is differant than WM,</tt>
 <tt>> Sprig over</tt>
 <tt>> > WM,</tt>
 <tt>> > and then sharp and clear sprig with no WM.</tt>
 <tt>> > ></tt>
 <tt>> > > Also, there are some that think "vlugtende"</tt>
 <tt>> (fleeing) WAS</tt>
 <tt>> > meant</tt>
 <tt>> > for the obverse as well as the reverse of the RI</tt>
 <tt>> Ship Token.</tt>
 <tt>> > About</tt>
 <tt>> > one year after the Battle of Rhode Island, Admiral</tt>
 <tt>> Howe was</tt>
 <tt>> > vlugtending his behind out of Rhode Island as the</tt>
 <tt>> French were</tt>
 <tt>> > (finally) arriving. In other words, it was a Dutch</tt>
 <tt>> spoof on</tt>
 <tt>> > both the</tt>
 <tt>> > American Colonialists and the English. Arguably,</tt>
 <tt>> they scrapped</tt>
 <tt>> > off</tt>
 <tt>> > the obverse vlugtende because their was a more</tt>
 <tt>> ready market for</tt>
 <tt>> ></tt>
 <tt>> > these tokens in England.</tt>
 <tt>> > ></tt>
 <tt>> > > I really don't want to get into a zinc Metalurgy</tt>
 <tt>> discussion</tt>
 <tt>> > about</tt>
 <tt>> > this right now, but I thought I would at least</tt>
 <tt>> share another</tt>
 <tt>> > view.</tt>
 <tt>> > ></tt>
 <tt>> > > Roger S.</tt>
 <tt>> > ></tt>
 <tt>> > > johnmenc@o... wrote:</tt>
 <tt>> > > The WM was under the obverse without the 1/2 to</tt>
 <tt>> this Rarity 9</tt>
 <tt>> > WM</tt>
 <tt>> > > example. Both were with an obverse 62. Several</tt>
 <tt>> weeks had gone</tt>
 <tt>> > by</tt>
 <tt>> > > since the WM Higgins find and Higgins had the</tt>
 <tt>> usual "grin" on</tt>
 <tt>> > his</tt>
 <tt>> > > face whenever he saw a C4'er walk by or when</tt>
 <tt>> anyone was</tt>
 <tt>> > examining</tt>
 <tt>> > > his great find (rightfully so) ... so anyway ...</tt>
 <tt>> I was</tt>
 <tt>> > walking by</tt>
 <tt>> > > maybe two Parsipanny shows later and someone who</tt>
 <tt>> knew him</tt>
 <tt>> > mentioned</tt>
 <tt>> > > to me Higgins found something very unusual</tt>
 <tt>> associated with</tt>
 <tt>> > this</tt>
 <tt>> > > R9 ... so I walked over ... and there was an</tt>
 <tt>> example with WM</tt>
 <tt>> > (very</tt>
 <tt>> > > faint but present around 50% or so) under the</tt>
 <tt>> sprig for a</tt>
 <tt>> > Morristown</tt>
 <tt>> > > M.62 obverse NJ. After his find what would be</tt>
 <tt>> the next</tt>
 <tt>> > logical</tt>
 <tt>> > > cherrypicking step or action? ... I checked my</tt>
 <tt>> entire</tt>
 <tt>> > collection ...</tt>
 <tt>> > > and NOTHING. I searched for a year ... and</tt>
 <tt>> NOTHING. Then</tt>
 <tt>> > after a</tt>
 <tt>> > > year ... I stopped looking ... I think if</tt>
 <tt>> everyone looked for</tt>
 <tt>> > a</tt>
 <tt>> > > year ... R6+ would not be an overstatement? for</tt>
 <tt>> this M.62 WM</tt>
 <tt>> > under</tt>
 <tt>> > > the sprig sub-variety.</tt>
 <tt>> > > HMMMMM .... Rhode Island Ship Token has this</tt>
 <tt>> type of effect</tt>
 <tt>> > ...</tt>
 <tt>> > > Although made in England, the legends on the</tt>
 <tt>> token are in</tt>
 <tt>> > Dutch.</tt>
 <tt>> > > Originally the engraver mistakenly included the</tt>
 <tt>> word</tt>
 <tt>> > "vlugtende"</tt>
 <tt>> > > (fleeing) on the obverse of the coin under the</tt>
 <tt>> flagship.</tt>
 <tt>> > Clearly</tt>
 <tt>> > > this was meant to be on the reverse of the token</tt>
 <tt>> which</tt>
 <tt>> > depicts the</tt>
 <tt>> > > fleeing Continental troops. This error was soon</tt>
 <tt>> discovered</tt>
 <tt>> > and had</tt>
 <tt>> > > to be remedied, as one could easily interpret</tt>
 <tt>> the obverse to</tt>
 <tt>> > mean</tt>
 <tt>> > > the Admiral's flagship was fleeing! The obverse</tt>
 <tt>> die was recut</tt>
 <tt>> > so</tt>
 <tt>> > > that a wreath design replaced the offending word</tt>
 <tt>> under the</tt>
 <tt>> > flagship.</tt>
 <tt>> > > Also, the word "vlugtende" was scrapped off the</tt>
 <tt>> remaining</tt>
 <tt>> > > undistributed stock of the token that already</tt>
 <tt>> been made.</tt>
 <tt>> > > The die progression seems logical?: WM, Sprig</tt>
 <tt>> over WM then</tt>
 <tt>> > M.62</tt>
 <tt>> > with</tt>
 <tt>> > > no signs of WM.</tt>
 <tt>> > ></tt>
 <tt>> > ></tt>
 <tt>> > ></tt>
 <tt>> > ></tt>
 <tt>> > > --- In colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com, Ray</tt>
 <tt>> Williams</tt>
 <tt>> > <njraywms@o...></tt>
 <tt>> > > wrote:</tt>
 <tt>> > > > John,</tt>
 <tt>> > > > Can you give us the present owner
of the</tt>
 <tt>> two coins you</tt>
 <tt>> > refer</tt>
 <tt>> > > to, or a plated auction appearance? I'd like to</tt>
 <tt>> see an</tt>
 <tt>> > example.</tt>
 <tt>> > Do</tt>
 <tt>> > > you recall if the obverse with WM under the</tt>
 <tt>> sprigs was a 60,</tt>
 <tt>> > 61,</tt>
 <tt>> > 62</tt>
 <tt>> > > or 63?</tt>
 <tt>> > > > Ray</tt>
 <tt>> > > > ----- Original Message -----</tt>
 <tt>> > > > From: johnmenc@o...</tt>
 <tt>> > > > To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com</tt>
 <tt>> > > > Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2004 9:33 AM</tt>
 <tt>> > > > Subject: [Colonial Numismatics] Re: WM New</tt>
 <tt>> Jersey</tt>
 <tt>> > > ></tt>
 <tt>> > > ></tt>
 <tt>> > > > As I mentioned earlier having seen two?</tt>
 <tt>> examples with WM</tt>
 <tt>> > under</tt>
 <tt>> > > the</tt>
 <tt>> > > > sprigs it was Higgins ALSO who came up with</tt>
 <tt>> one of these</tt>
 <tt>> > > examples a</tt>
 <tt>> > > > month or two after his discovery. All I am</tt>
 <tt>> saying is</tt>
 <tt>> > everyone</tt>
 <tt>> > > should</tt>
 <tt>> > > > check there Morristown pieces in the sprig</tt>
 <tt>> area with a</tt>
 <tt>> > loop ...</tt>
 <tt>> > > to</tt>
 <tt>> > > > be honest ... I have forgotten to do this</tt>
 <tt>> lately (i.e.,</tt>
 <tt>> > last</tt>
 <tt>> > > couple</tt>
 <tt>> > > > of years).</tt>
 <tt>> > ></tt>
 <tt>> > ></tt>
 <tt>> > > Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT</tt>
 <tt>> > ></tt>
 <tt>> > ></tt>
 <tt>> > > ---------------------------------</tt>
 <tt>> > > Yahoo! Groups Links</tt>
 <tt>> > ></tt>
 <tt>> > > To visit your group on the web, go to:</tt>
 <tt>> > > <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/colonial-coins/">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/colonial-coins/</a></tt>
 <tt>> > ></tt>
 <tt>> > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an
email</tt>
 <tt>> to:</tt>
 <tt>> > > colonial-coins-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com</tt>
 <tt>> > ></tt>
 <tt>> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
the</tt>
 <tt>> Yahoo! Terms</tt>

Source URL

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/colonial-coins/info

Date published

2004-09-10

Volume

WM under Sprig New Jersey Public Deposited

[Colonial Numismatics] Re

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