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- From mike468hodder@yahoo.com Sat Sep 11 02:55:59 2004
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Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 02:55:58 -0700 (PDT)
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From: Mike Hodder <mike468hodder@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Re: WM under Sprig New Jersey
X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=172578868
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How about the US Mint medal for General Peter Porter
for the Battle of Lake Erie (Julian MI.18), struck in
gold, silver, copper, and white metal with SEP.17
punched over AUG.15 to include a date important to
Porter's military fame? The gold medal for Porter,
presumably the first struck from the dies, was made in
December, 1824.
Mike H
--- "J.C.SPILMAN" <JCSpilman1@Comcast.NET> wrote:
> Some trivia - -
>
> By the time Augustas B. Sage came along with his
> token series,
> die sinkers had learned to fix mislettered dies. I
> have a
> beautiful pair of Sage tokens - I do not recall
> which series they
> are in - but a letter in one of the legends has been
> corrected
> from the wrong to the correct letter. A before and
> after pair of
> tokens. Under a microscope one can really appreciate
> the
> precision work that was accomplished on the die.
> Do you know of
> any other before and after coinage, token or medal
> series that
> have die corrections?
>
> Jim/CNLF
>
> ============================
>
> Mike Hodder wrote:
>
> > No problem with the concept, just the
> understanding of
> > it:
> >
> > step 1: vlugtende in the die on the obverse by
> mistake
> > step 2: oh sh*t, what'd I do?
> > step 3: better scrape the word off the tokens
> we've
> > struck
> > step 4; sheesh, this takes time
> > step 5: brainstorm! let's punch some random floral
> > elements over that offensive vlugtende in the die
> > step 6: sigh of relief, we're cookin now
> >
> > Mike H
> >
> > --- "J.C.SPILMAN" <JCSpilman1@Comcast.NET> wrote:
> >
> > > A problem here with the concept. "vlugtende"
> was
> > > raised
> > > lettering on the coin - hence incuse on the die.
> > > One does not
> > > just "scrape off" incuse lettering without
> changing
> > > the
> > > surrounding field level of the specimen.
> > >
> > > Jim/CNLF
> > >
> > > ======================
> > >
> > > johnmenc@optonline.net wrote:
> > >
> > > > Yes - Different in the die progression but
> > > similar in the
> > > > sense that
> > > > a motif is attempting to cover some symbols
> > > (letter or
> > > > numerals) on
> > > > a numismatic item. Can we think of other motif
> > > covering
> > > > examples? ... anywhere.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com, Roger
> > > Siboni
> > > > <mantoloking2002@y...> wrote:
> > > > > John,
> > > > >
> > > > > I think in the case of RI Ship Tokens, the
> > > progression
> > > > is "vlugtende", scrapped off vlugtende, and
> then
> > > wreath over
> > > > scrapped off vlugtende. That is differant than
> WM,
> > > Sprig over
> > > > WM,
> > > > and then sharp and clear sprig with no WM.
> > > > >
> > > > > Also, there are some that think "vlugtende"
> > > (fleeing) WAS
> > > > meant
> > > > for the obverse as well as the reverse of the
> RI
> > > Ship Token.
> > > > About
> > > > one year after the Battle of Rhode Island,
> Admiral
> > > Howe was
> > > > vlugtending his behind out of Rhode Island as
> the
> > > French were
> > > > (finally) arriving. In other words, it was a
> Dutch
> > > spoof on
> > > > both the
> > > > American Colonialists and the English.
> Arguably,
> > > they scrapped
> > > > off
> > > > the obverse vlugtende because their was a more
> > > ready market for
> > > >
> > > > these tokens in England.
> > > > >
> > > > > I really don't want to get into a zinc
> Metalurgy
> > > discussion
> > > > about
> > > > this right now, but I thought I would at least
> > > share another
> > > > view.
> > > > >
> > > > > Roger S.
> > > > >
> > > > > johnmenc@o... wrote:
> > > > > The WM was under the obverse without the 1/2
> to
> > > this Rarity 9
> > > > WM
> > > > > example. Both were with an obverse 62.
> Several
> > > weeks had gone
> > > > by
> > > > > since the WM Higgins find and Higgins had
> the
> > > usual "grin" on
> > > > his
> > > > > face whenever he saw a C4'er walk by or when
> > > anyone was
> > > > examining
> > > > > his great find (rightfully so) ... so anyway
> ...
> > > I was
> > > > walking by
> > > > > maybe two Parsipanny shows later and someone
> who
> > > knew him
> > > > mentioned
> > > > > to me Higgins found something very unusual
> > > associated with
> > > > this
> > > > > R9 ... so I walked over ... and there was an
> > > example with WM
> > > > (very
> > > > > faint but present around 50% or so) under
> the
> > > sprig for a
> > > > Morristown
> > > > > M.62 obverse NJ. After his find what would
> be
> > > the next
> > > > logical
> > > > > cherrypicking step or action? ... I checked
> my
> > > entire
> > > > collection ...
> > > > > and NOTHING. I searched for a year ... and
> > > NOTHING. Then
> > > > after a
> > > > > year ... I stopped looking ... I think if
> > > everyone looked for
> > > > a
> > > > > year ... R6+ would not be an overstatement?
> for
> > > this M.62 WM
> > > > under
> > > > > the sprig sub-variety.
> > > > > HMMMMM .... Rhode Island Ship Token has this
> > > type of effect
> > > > ...
> > > > > Although made in England, the legends on the
> > > token are in
> > > > Dutch.
> > > > > Originally the engraver mistakenly included
> the
> > > word
> > > > "vlugtende"
> > > > > (fleeing) on the obverse of the coin under
> the
> > > flagship.
> > > > Clearly
> > > > > this was meant to be on the reverse of the
> token
> > > which
> > > > depicts the
> > > > > fleeing Continental troops. This error was
> soon
> > > discovered
> > > > and had
> > > > > to be remedied, as one could easily
> interpret
> > > the obverse to
> > > > mean
> > > > > the Admiral's flagship was fleeing! The
> obverse
> > > die was recut
> > > > so
> > > > > that a wreath design replaced the offending
> word
> > > under the
> > > > flagship.
> > > > > Also, the word "vlugtende" was scrapped off
> the
> > > remaining
> > > > > undistributed stock of the token that
> already
> > > been made.
> > > > > The die progression seems logical?: WM,
> Sprig
> > > over WM then
> > > > M.62
> > > > with
> > > > > no signs of WM.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com, Ray
> > > Williams
> > > > <njraywms@o...>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > John,
> > > > > > Can you give us the present owner of
> the
> > > two coins you
> > > > refer
> > > > > to, or a plated auction appearance? I'd
> like to
> > > see an
> > > > example.
> > > > Do
> > > > > you recall if the obverse with WM under the
> > > sprigs was a 60,
> > > > 61,
> > > > 62
> > > > > or 63?
> > > > > > Ray
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: johnmenc@o...
> > > > > > To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2004 9:33
> AM
> > > > > > Subject: [Colonial Numismatics] Re: WM
> New
> > > Jersey
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > As I mentioned earlier having seen two?
> > > examples with WM
> > > > under
> > > > > the
> > > > > > sprigs it was Higgins ALSO who came up
> with
> > > one of these
> > > > > examples a
> > > > > > month or two after his discovery. All I
> am
> > > saying is
> > > > everyone
> > > > > should
> > > > > > check there Morristown pieces in the
> sprig
> > > area with a
> > > > loop ...
> > > > > to
> > > > > > be honest ... I have forgotten to do
> this
> > > lately (i.e.,
> > > > last
> > > > > couple
> > > > > > of years).
> > > > >
> > > > >
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