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From: "Martin, Syd" <sfmartin@corp.sytexinc.com>
Subject: Re: Spam:Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Why Silver Wood Pieces Syd???
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John: read Brian's articles again - they are replete with proof of the=20
circulation in Ireland. Syd
On Jan 6, 2005, at 2:58 PM, <johnmenc@optonline.net> wrote:
>
> Good post Jeff ... really ... but your writings below ... are they
> not similar to Brian's or to Syd's which is just right around the
> corner ... in terms of ... good quality coins obviously must have
> passed to a needy population of people in Ireland. Having collected
> Irish coinage for 10 years from the Hiberno Norse period and upward
> to George I (my collection was sold untitled by Stacks CG a couple
> of years back) - I can relate to the universal second rate nature of
> the Irish coinage (in general) compared to the English counterparts
> in terms of weight, style and execution.
> The key words here are "must have passed." Still I see no evidence
> to this fact other than someone saying to me "Does this not seem
> logical that such a beautiful coin as the 1723 Hibernia halfpence=A0
> would have circulated FREELY - side by side with the regals and
> contempraries of this time?" Sure - it seems favorable ... but show
> me some physical proof in terms of transaction records, etc.
> Since this was suppose to be a contract for YEARS and we see that
> after the first real year of distribution (1723) the coinage is
> suddenly halted one year later (1724) ... how freely did this
> debased? brass coinage circulate. Swifts comparisons in the
> Drapier's from my understanding was again comparing WW's brass
> coinage to the exisiting English regal pieces. Yes - Apples &
> Oranges which Swift used to his advantage. Sure the differnetial is
> not that bad as you indicate but its there & Swift capitilized on
> this situation.
> Perhaps if this Wood coinage ever got off the ground ... it would
> seem logical that a twopence size Wood piece ... would have been
> produced. Although ... we are talking about the Irish in the early
> 18th century ... would these second rate citizens actually need a
> brass coiange of such a size? OOOPS - I slipped on the keyboard ...
> I forgot some people simply want the arrow pointing the other
> way ... AWAY FROM SWIFT ... this is 2005 and this does make your
> Nelson 8's glow that much better!
>
> My wife is Irish by the way ...
>
>
>
>
> --- In colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com, Rosaamltd@a... wrote:
> > John, you are assuming here that all the British posessions had a=A0
> > circulating coinage that was equal in weight and fineness to those
> produced by=A0 the
> > Tower mint in London, aren't you?=A0 Comparing British George II
> and=A0 George III
> > coinage to the Woods pieces is comparing apples to oranges -- you=A0
> need to
> > compare IRISH George II and George III pieces to the Wood
> issues.=A0=A0 Even if Ireland
> > is a heck of a lot closer to London than America is, anything=A0
> produced in
> > England would have to be shipped over there and the pieces would=A0
> need to be
> > placed in circulation at some expense to the crown; that expense=A0
> would most
> > likely be taken "off the top" as a slight decrease in the weight
> or=A0 fineness of a
> > particular piece (or in the case of the Rosa Americana series as=A0
> an increase
> > in the valuation -- so that a coin the size of a Hibernia
> farthing=A0 now became
> > a Rosa Americana halfpenny, and on up the scale).=A0 So a few=A0
> grains
> > difference between standard BRITISH weight and Woods coinages
> would not=A0 have been that
> > bad at all, and would have actually been a bonus to Irish=A0
> merchants, as even
> > a Hibernia at 5 grains less would still weight a lot more=A0 than
> the
> > counterfeit British and Irish pieces and 17th & early 18th
> century=A0 token coinages that
> > would have probably made up the majority of pieces in=A0 circulation
> in Ireland
> > at the time.
> >=A0
> > Swift was an interesting character, but he was one that held
> grudges pretty=A0
> > much for his entire life -- if you read through "Gulliver's
> Travels" you can=A0
> > occasionally figure out the exact person he was mocking or
> satirizing, but to
> > a=A0 contemporary the text would have read closer to something like
> today's
> > "National=A0 Enquirer" in that it slammed just about every authority
> who ever dared
> > to=A0 disagree with Swift.=A0 No doubt somewhere along the line Wood
> must have=A0
> > given insult to Swift and Swift must have taken great pleasure in
> being able to=A0
> > adopt yet another persona, the Drapier, to mock the man and his
> coinage.=A0=A0
> > The fact that the coinage was good, was definitely useful and
> particularly=A0
> > needed in Ireland didn't seem to matter much to Swift, and when
> Wood's=A0 enterprise
> > failed there would have certainly been a shortage of circulating=A0
> specie
> > which would then be filled with -- what else -- low weight, crude=A0
> counterfeits of
> > regal types that were actually LESS valuable than the Wood=A0 pieces!
> >=A0
> > And a tangent -- something that I've always wondered about, and
> maybe Syd=A0
> > can comment on.=A0 If the Hibernia farthing is about the size of the
> Rosa=A0
> > halfpenny, and the Hibernia halfpenny is about the size of the
> Rosa penny, then=A0 why
> > do we have a Rosa twopence and NOT a Hibrenia penny?=A0 It would
> seem=A0 logical
> > to have such a coin, especially since Wood must have had
> equipment=A0 capable of
> > making planchets that size and thickness and presses that could=A0
> strike such a
> > piece...
> >=A0
> > Jeff Rock
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> =95 To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/colonial-coins/
> =A0
> =95 To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> colonial-coins-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> =A0
> =95 Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of=20
> Service.
>
>=20=20
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John: read Brian's articles again - they are replete with proof of
the circulation in Ireland. Syd
On Jan 6, 2005, at 2:58 PM, <<johnmenc@optonline.net> wrote:
<excerpt>
<fixed> Good post Jeff ... really ... but your writings below ... are
they </fixed>
<fixed> not similar to Brian's or to Syd's which is just right around
the </fixed>
<fixed> corner ... in terms of ... good quality coins obviously must
have </fixed>
<fixed> passed to a needy population of people in Ireland. Having
collected </fixed>
<fixed> Irish coinage for 10 years from the Hiberno Norse period and
upward </fixed>
<fixed> to George I (my collection was sold untitled by Stacks CG a
couple </fixed>
<fixed> of years back) - I can relate to the universal second rate
nature of </fixed>
<fixed> the Irish coinage (in general) compared to the English
counterparts</fixed>
<fixed> in terms of weight, style and execution.</fixed>
<fixed> The key words here are "must have passed." Still I see no
evidence</fixed>
<fixed> to this fact other than someone saying to me "Does this not
seem </fixed>
<fixed> logical that such a beautiful coin as the 1723 Hibernia
halfpence=A0 </fixed>
<fixed> would have circulated FREELY - side by side with the regals
and </fixed>
<fixed> contempraries of this time?" Sure - it seems favorable ... but
show </fixed>
<fixed> me some physical proof in terms of transaction records, =
etc.</fixed>
<fixed> Since this was suppose to be a contract for YEARS and we see
that </fixed>
<fixed> after the first real year of distribution (1723) the coinage
is </fixed>
<fixed> suddenly halted one year later (1724) ... how freely did this =
</fixed>
<fixed> debased? brass coinage circulate. Swifts comparisons in the =
</fixed>
<fixed> Drapier's from my understanding was again comparing WW's brass =
</fixed>
<fixed> coinage to the exisiting English regal pieces. Yes - Apples & =
</fixed>
<fixed> Oranges which Swift used to his advantage. Sure the
differnetial is </fixed>
<fixed> not that bad as you indicate but its there & Swift capitilized
on </fixed>
<fixed> this situation.</fixed>
<fixed> Perhaps if this Wood coinage ever got off the ground ... it
would </fixed>
<fixed> seem logical that a twopence size Wood piece ... would have
been </fixed>
<fixed> produced. Although ... we are talking about the Irish in the
early </fixed>
<fixed> 18th century ... would these second rate citizens actually
need a </fixed>
<fixed> brass coiange of such a size? OOOPS - I slipped on the
keyboard ... </fixed>
<fixed> I forgot some people simply want the arrow pointing the other =
</fixed>
<fixed> way ... AWAY FROM SWIFT ... this is 2005 and this does make
your </fixed>
<fixed> Nelson 8's glow that much better!</fixed>
<fixed> My wife is Irish by the way ...</fixed>
<fixed> --- In colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com, Rosaamltd@a... =
wrote:</fixed>
<fixed> > John, you are assuming here that all the British posessions
had a=A0 </fixed>
<fixed> > circulating coinage that was equal in weight and fineness to
those </fixed>
<fixed> produced by=A0 the </fixed>
<fixed> > Tower mint in London, aren't you?=A0 Comparing British George
II </fixed>
<fixed> and=A0 George III </fixed>
<fixed> > coinage to the Woods pieces is comparing apples to oranges
-- you=A0 </fixed>
<fixed> need to </fixed>
<fixed> > compare IRISH George II and George III pieces to the =
Wood</fixed>
<fixed> issues.=A0=A0 Even if Ireland </fixed>
<fixed> > is a heck of a lot closer to London than America is,
anything=A0 </fixed>
<fixed> produced in</fixed>
<fixed> > England would have to be shipped over there and the pieces
would=A0 </fixed>
<fixed> need to be </fixed>
<fixed> > placed in circulation at some expense to the crown; that
expense=A0 </fixed>
<fixed> would most </fixed>
<fixed> > likely be taken "off the top" as a slight decrease in the
weight </fixed>
<fixed> or=A0 fineness of a </fixed>
<fixed> > particular piece (or in the case of the Rosa Americana
series as=A0 </fixed>
<fixed> an increase</fixed>
<fixed> > in the valuation -- so that a coin the size of a Hibernia =
</fixed>
<fixed> farthing=A0 now became </fixed>
<fixed> > a Rosa Americana halfpenny, and on up the scale).=A0 So a few=A0=
</fixed>
<fixed> grains </fixed>
<fixed> > difference between standard BRITISH weight and Woods
coinages </fixed>
<fixed> would not=A0 have been that </fixed>
<fixed> > bad at all, and would have actually been a bonus to Irish=A0 =
</fixed>
<fixed> merchants, as even </fixed>
<fixed> > a Hibernia at 5 grains less would still weight a lot more=A0
than </fixed>
<fixed> the </fixed>
<fixed> > counterfeit British and Irish pieces and 17th & early 18th =
</fixed>
<fixed> century=A0 token coinages that </fixed>
<fixed> > would have probably made up the majority of pieces in=A0
circulation</fixed>
<fixed> in Ireland </fixed>
<fixed> > at the time.</fixed>
<fixed> >=A0 </fixed>
<fixed> > Swift was an interesting character, but he was one that held =
</fixed>
<fixed> grudges pretty=A0 </fixed>
<fixed> > much for his entire life -- if you read through =
"Gulliver's</fixed>
<fixed> Travels" you can=A0 </fixed>
<fixed> > occasionally figure out the exact person he was mocking or =
</fixed>
<fixed> satirizing, but to </fixed>
<fixed> > a=A0 contemporary the text would have read closer to something
like </fixed>
<fixed> today's </fixed>
<fixed> > "National=A0 Enquirer" in that it slammed just about every
authority </fixed>
<fixed> who ever dared </fixed>
<fixed> > to=A0 disagree with Swift.=A0 No doubt somewhere along the =
line
Wood </fixed>
<fixed> must have=A0 </fixed>
<fixed> > given insult to Swift and Swift must have taken great
pleasure in</fixed>
<fixed> being able to=A0 </fixed>
<fixed> > adopt yet another persona, the Drapier, to mock the man and
his</fixed>
<fixed> coinage.=A0=A0 </fixed>
<fixed> > The fact that the coinage was good, was definitely useful
and </fixed>
<fixed> particularly=A0</fixed>
<fixed> > needed in Ireland didn't seem to matter much to Swift, and
when </fixed>
<fixed> Wood's=A0 enterprise </fixed>
<fixed> > failed there would have certainly been a shortage of
circulating=A0</fixed>
<fixed> specie </fixed>
<fixed> > which would then be filled with -- what else -- low weight,
crude=A0 </fixed>
<fixed> counterfeits of </fixed>
<fixed> > regal types that were actually LESS valuable than the Wood=A0
pieces!</fixed>
<fixed> >=A0 </fixed>
<fixed> > And a tangent -- something that I've always wondered about,
and </fixed>
<fixed> maybe Syd=A0 </fixed>
<fixed> > can comment on.=A0 If the Hibernia farthing is about the size
of the</fixed>
<fixed> Rosa=A0 </fixed>
<fixed> > halfpenny, and the Hibernia halfpenny is about the size of
the </fixed>
<fixed> Rosa penny, then=A0 why </fixed>
<fixed> > do we have a Rosa twopence and NOT a Hibrenia penny?=A0 It
would </fixed>
<fixed> seem=A0 logical </fixed>
<fixed> > to have such a coin, especially since Wood must have had =
</fixed>
<fixed> equipment=A0 capable of </fixed>
<fixed> > making planchets that size and thickness and presses that
could=A0</fixed>
<fixed> strike such a </fixed>
<fixed> > piece...</fixed>
<fixed> >=A0 </fixed>
<fixed> > Jeff Rock</fixed>
=20
<bold><smaller>Yahoo! Groups Links</smaller></bold>
<fixed> =95 To visit your group on the web, go to:</fixed>
=
<fixed><color><param>0000,0000,EEEE</param>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/c=
olonial-coins/</color></fixed>
<fixed>=A0</fixed>
<fixed> =95 To unsubscribe from this group, send an email =
to:</fixed>
=
<fixed><color><param>0000,0000,EEEE</param>colonial-coins-unsubscribe@yaho=
ogroups.com</color></fixed>
<fixed>=A0</fixed>
<fixed> =95 Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
<color><param>0000,0000,EEEE</param>Yahoo! Terms of =
Service</color>.</fixed>
</excerpt>=
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