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From: johnmenc@optonline.net
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Subject: Spam:Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Why Silver Wood Pieces Syd???
X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=111282553
X-Yahoo-Profile: colonial_john_c4
This is exactly my point Dave in terms of Syd needing to review=20
Davis in detail to get more of the facts here...
This is not a situation on the factual VALIDITY of Swifts comments=20
as a determining factor on the degree of circulation of Wood's Brass=20
pieces as Swift calls them but the overal EFFECT of Swifts comments=20
on the OVERALL degree of circulation in 1723 and 1724.
Further ... Davis's overview of the Drapiers along with other=20
NUMEROUS historical documents he reviews and comments in his book=20
will OPEN THE EYES of the researcher to the detremental effects=20
these latters had on this ability of this coinage to freely=20
circulate in Ireland. This degree is left for the reader at this=20
point in time within C4.=20
--- In colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com, "palmers4@e..."=20
<palmers4@e...> wrote:
> John, I have been trying to stay out of this dialogue between you=20
and Syd,
> as I thought Syd was doing well in stating his case. I think you=20
are
> missing something. Based on what I have read of the Drapier=20
letters, and I
> admit, I have not read every word, there was a personal vendetta=20
going on
> between Wood, and Swift. For Swift to have overstated his case,=20
when it's
> personal, is not unusual, in fact, it is human nature to do so,=20
when you
> are trying to convince someone else. You seem convinced that Swift=20
was
> completely altruistic here, I and I think a few others are not.=20
His letters
> go far beyond the point of altruism, and smack of personal=20
feelings. Well
> said, yes, but personal none the less. When it gets personal, it=20
gets ugly,
> and lies, or half-truths are not at all unusual. Even if someone=20
writing
> about it later takes Swift's side, and agrees with him, is it=20
based solely
> upon FACT, or at least SOME supposition? Do not take Swift's(=20
Drapier's)
> letters at FULL face value, as you seem to be doing. I believe it=20
is a
> trap, and you would do well to avoid it. Look at ALL the facts=20
first, then
> decide. David
>=20
> Original Message:
> -----------------
> From: johnmenc@o...
> Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2005 16:55:36 -0000
> To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Spam:Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Why Silver Wood Pieces=20
Syd???
>=20
>=20
>=20
> <html><body>
>=20
>=20
>=20
> <tt>
> <BR>
> My guess is that you "MAY" have a change in opinion after reading=20
<BR>
> some of Swift's=A0 merchant examples that he portrays in the <BR>
> Drapier's ... in terms of merchant transactions and the problems=20
<BR>
> that will come about if you are a merchant and if you are STUCK=20
with <BR>
> Wood's underweight coinage after or during a transaction. Swift=20
<BR>
> retrieved many merchant signatures who felt this underweight=20
coinage <BR>
> was simply - NO GOOD for the Irish economy which he used as PROOF=20
<BR>
> that this coinage was not suitable for the people of Ireland. This=20
<BR>
> was IMHO a little different than a Conder token which was backed=20
by <BR>
> a reputable merchant as "good money." This Wood Brass money was=20
more <BR>
> of a hinderance to the merchants when having to deal with BOTH=20
good <BR>
> weight EXISTING regal money and this NEW and undesirable=20
underweight <BR>
> brass (as Swift calls it) halfpence & farthings. Again its <BR>
> underweight "status" would ALSO make it "that much easier" for the=20
<BR>
> counterfeiter to make & pass.<BR>
> IMHO Swifts arguments, the counterfeiting argument and the=20
multiple <BR>
> merchant examples in the Drapier's go WAY BEYOND as just being <BR>
> POLITICAL but more of a nature of COMMON SENSE.<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> --- In colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com, Ray Williams=20
<njraywms@o...> <BR>
> wrote:<BR>
> > John,<BR>
> >=A0=A0=A0=A0 I don't think that Swift would have been politically <BR>
> motivated, at all, to give an inaccurate report of the weights of=20
<BR>
> Wood's coinages <BG>=A0 I have a feeling that with respect to the=20
<BR>
> copper coinage, being up to weight was not as important as what=20
was <BR>
> accepted or not accepted (politics).=A0 Most copper coinage was a=20
<BR>
> token coinage and did not contain the full value of the coin in=20
its <BR>
> copper content, unlike the silver and gold coinages which did.=A0=A0=20
<BR>
> > Ray<BR>
> >=A0=A0 ----- Original Message ----- <BR>
> >=A0=A0 From: johnmenc@o... <BR>
> >=A0=A0 To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com <BR>
> >=A0=A0 Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 10:58 AM<BR>
> >=A0=A0 Subject: Spam:Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Why Silver Wood=20
Pieces <BR>
> Syd???<BR>
> > <BR>
> > <BR>
> > <BR>
> >=A0=A0 Good point Syd - the deviation is/appears small - however it=20
<BR>
> would <BR>
> >=A0=A0 be interesting to correlate your current findings to Swift's=20
<BR>
> >=A0=A0 examples in the Drapier's in terms of his arguments/examples=20
<BR>
> with <BR>
> >=A0=A0 various merchants receiving Wood's underweight coinage and the=20
<BR>
> >=A0=A0 RESULTING LOSS the merchant would find himself in when=20
accepting <BR>
> >=A0=A0 this coinage. A cross-comparison would be very well received=20
in <BR>
> a <BR>
> >=A0=A0 future CNL. <BR>
> > <BR>
> >=A0=A0 Perhaps Swift did exaggerate a bit on the underwight issue in=20
<BR>
> his <BR>
> >=A0=A0 documented examples based on your calculations? I doubt Syd if=20
<BR>
> >=A0=A0 anyone has been here yet in terms of the above cross-
comparion.<BR>
> > <BR>
> > <BR>
> > <BR>
> >=A0=A0 --- In colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com, "Martin, Syd" <BR>
> <sfmartin@c...> <BR>
> >=A0=A0 wrote:<BR>
> >=A0=A0 > Actually, be careful of claiming underweight.=A0 I have a=20
sample <BR>
> of <BR>
> >=A0=A0 > approximately 1,000 pieces.=A0 The average weight is about 5=20
<BR>
> grains <BR>
> >=A0=A0 less <BR>
> >=A0=A0 > than standard BUT the standard deviation of the sample is=20
<BR>
> about 7 <BR>
> >=A0=A0 > grains.=A0 If anyone is interested, I can provide exact data=20
(by <BR>
> >=A0=A0 year and <BR>
> >=A0=A0 > by total).=A0 Remember also, that an exchange rate existed <BR>
> between <BR>
> >=A0=A0 > England and Ireland at the time -- their currencies were <BR>
> not "at <BR>
> >=A0=A0 > parity."=A0 Syd<BR>
> >=A0=A0 > <BR>
> >=A0=A0 > <BR>
> >=A0=A0 > On Jan 5, 2005, at 9:43 AM, <johnmenc@o...> wrote:<BR>
> >=A0=A0 > <BR>
> >=A0=A0 > ><BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 One thing really instructive on reading the Drapier's <BR>
> Letters <BR>
> >=A0=A0 (SO<BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 FAR) was the importance of "coin weight" and its=20
importance <BR>
> to <BR>
> >=A0=A0 the<BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 VARIOUS merchants. Swift used=A0 this as his main argument=
=20
<BR>
> IMHO to<BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 CONVINCE the merchants to boycott Wood's BRASS (as he <BR>
> called <BR>
> >=A0=A0 this<BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 coinage)of halfpence and farthings. There is also some=20
great<BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 arguments on how this coinage will leave the people open=20
<BR>
> >=A0=A0 to "MORE"<BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 underweight bogus counterfeit halfpence as Wood's pieces=20
<BR>
> were<BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 already counterfeit "in nature" as being underweight. He=20
<BR>
> >=A0=A0 supplies<BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 some classic merchants examples on how their businesses=20
<BR>
> will <BR>
> >=A0=A0 suffer<BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 on accepting this underwight coinage.<BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 There is never a mention of the word "shilling" in any of=
=20
<BR>
> the<BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 Drapier Letters.<BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 I keep thinking the silver pieces were for die testing or=
=20
<BR>
> for <BR>
> >=A0=A0 some<BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 form type of presentation example. No hint in the <BR>
> Drapier's - <BR>
> >=A0=A0 but<BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 then again - why would there be ... the coinage being <BR>
> rejected <BR>
> >=A0=A0 in my<BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 mind was not really political ... Swift is right ... what=
=20
<BR>
> >=A0=A0 advantage<BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 would it be for the merchants of Ireland to accept brass=20
<BR>
> coinage<BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 which is underweight to their CURRENT English=20
counterpart<BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 coinage ... even if there was a REAL need for non-<BR>
> silver/gold<BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 coinage for the working class people of Ireland. His <BR>
> examples <BR>
> >=A0=A0 again<BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 are great and HIT HOME.<BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 I am not convinced at all - that since we now have to pay=
=20
<BR>
> four<BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 digits for a 1723 UNC halfpence that this would lead me=20
to <BR>
> be<BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 convinced that this coinage was feely accepted in=20
Ireland - <BR>
> TO <BR>
> >=A0=A0 ANY<BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 DEGREE AT ALL !!!<BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 The hell with this underwight bogus halfpence - I am with=
=20
<BR>
> you <BR>
> >=A0=A0 SWIFT -<BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 ship this GARBAGE to the COLONIES - ALL OF IT!<BR>
> >=A0=A0 > ><BR>
> >=A0=A0 > ><BR>
> >=A0=A0 > ><BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 --- In colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com, Ray Williams <BR>
> >=A0=A0 <njraywms@o...><BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 wrote:<BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 > Thanks Jack, that will give me something to read on a=20
<BR>
> snowy<BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 evening.=A0 I don't know if it's the same source that JPL=
=20
had <BR>
> >=A0=A0 shared,<BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 but it certainly will give me what I'm looking for.<BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 > Ray<BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0 ----- Original Message -----<BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0 From: Jack Howes<BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0 To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com<BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0 Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 9:40 PM<BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0 Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Why Silver Woo=
d=20
<BR>
> Pieces <BR>
> >=A0=A0 Syd???<BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 ><BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 ><BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0 Ray,<BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 ><BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0 Here is a link to an etext of Swift's Drapier's=20
Letters:<BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 ><BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0 <a
> href=3D"http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/1/2/7/8/12784/12784-
8.txt">http://www.gu
> tenberg.org/dirs/1/2/7/8/12784/12784-8.txt</a><BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0 ----- Original Message -----<BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0 From: Ray Williams<BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0 To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com<BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0 Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 5:27 PM<BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0 Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Why Silv=
er Wood=20
<BR>
> Pieces<BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 Syd???<BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 ><BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 ><BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0 John,<BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Could you share what site you do=
wnloaded the=20
below<BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 information?=A0 It's interesting and I'd like to read a <B=
R>
> little <BR>
> >=A0=A0 more on<BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 the topic.<BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0 Ray<BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 ----- Original Message -----<BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 From: johnmenc@o...<BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com<BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 4:36 P=
M<BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Subject: [Colonial Numismatics] Why Si=
lver Wood=20
<BR>
> Pieces <BR>
> >=A0=A0 Syd???<BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 ><BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 ><BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 ><BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 As is well known William Wood had issu=
ed=20
quantities <BR>
> of <BR>
> >=A0=A0 regal<BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 halfpennies and farthings for Ireland =
in 1722 and=20
<BR>
> 1723, <BR>
> >=A0=A0 but<BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 these<BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 had been extremely unpopular, even tho=
ugh the=20
last <BR>
> >=A0=A0 copper<BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 issue had<BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 been in 1696 and shortages were starti=
ng to=20
appear. <BR>
> This<BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 popularity<BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 was in part the result of a campaign, =
given <BR>
> intellectual<BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 force by<BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Swift's Drapier's Letters, which, in t=
he spirit=20
of <BR>
> the <BR>
> >=A0=A0 age,<BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 refused<BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 to accept the advantages of a separati=
on between=20
<BR>
> face <BR>
> >=A0=A0 and<BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 intrinsic<BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 value for the smaller denominations.<B=
R>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 ><BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Swift's arguments were based on politi=
cal animus=20
<BR>
> and <BR>
> >=A0=A0 some<BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 rather<BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 shakey economics. The American colonis=
ts proved=20
more<BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 amenable and<BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Mr. Wood's coins were shipped off acro=
ss the=20
ocean. <BR>
> >=A0=A0 Before<BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 Wood's<BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 issue, it was said that 'considerable=
=20
manufacturers <BR>
> were<BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 obliged to<BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 pay their men with tallies or token in=
cards, <BR>
> signed <BR>
> >=A0=A0 upon<BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 the back,<BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 to be afterwards exchanged for money..=
: 2 <BR>
> Subsequently,<BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 there may<BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 well have been a recurrence of the per=
ennial <BR>
> shortage of<BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 coinage in<BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Ireland, bin this must have been alevi=
nted, at=20
<BR>
> least m <BR>
> >=A0=A0 part.<BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 by the<BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 issue of regal halfpence in 1736-38, 1=
741-44, and=20
<BR>
> >=A0=A0 farthings<BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 in 1737,<BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 1738 and 1744, to take only the most r=
elevant=20
years.<BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 ><BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Syd - I am currently reading the Drapi=
er Letters -
<BR>
> its<BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 interesting I<BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 can find no mention of the word "SILVE=
R." Were=20
<BR>
> these <BR>
> >=A0=A0 just<BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 experimental mint pieces or less likel=
y <BR>
> presentation <BR>
> >=A0=A0 pieces?<BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 What<BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 are your thoughts on this matter???<BR=
>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 ><BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 ><BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 ><BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 ><BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 ><BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 ><BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 > --------------------------------------------------------
--<BR>
> ----<BR>
> >=A0=A0 -----<BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 -----------<BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0 Yahoo! Groups Links<BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 ><BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0 a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:<B=
R>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0 <a
> href=3D"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/colonial-
coins/">http://groups.yahoo.com
> /group/colonial-coins/</a><BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 <BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0 b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an =
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> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0 colonial-coins-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com<B=
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> Yahoo! <BR>
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> >=A0=A0 > ><BR>
> >=A0=A0 > ><BR>
> >=A0=A0 > ><BR>
> >=A0=A0 > ><BR>
> >=A0=A0 > ><BR>
> >=A0=A0 > > Yahoo! Groups Links<BR>
> >=A0=A0 > ><BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 .=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 To visit your group on =
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> >=A0=A0 > > <a
> href=3D"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/colonial-
coins/">http://groups.yahoo.com
> /group/colonial-coins/</a><BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 <BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 .=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 To unsubscribe from thi=
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> to:<BR>
> >=A0=A0 > > colonial-coins-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com<BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 <BR>
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