[Colonial Numismatics] Why Silver Wood Pieces Syd???

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From palmers4@erols.com Sat Jan 08 13:40:10 2005
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From: "palmers4@erols.com" <palmers4@erols.com>
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Subject: Re: Spam:Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Why Silver Wood Pieces Syd???
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Thanks, Jim. DP

Original Message:
-----------------
From: JCSpilman JCSpilman1@Comcast.NET
Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 14:55:07 -0600
To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: Spam:Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Why Silver Wood Pieces Syd???

David - -

Very good advice - especially in this instance - but it also applies
very well to any analysis of interpersonal communications.

Jim/CNLF

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

"palmers4@erols.com" wrote:

> John, I have been trying to stay out of this dialogue between you and
> Syd,
> as I thought Syd was doing well in stating his case. I think you are
> missing something. Based on what I have read of the Drapier letters,
> and I
> admit, I have not read every word, there was a personal vendetta going
> on
> between Wood, and Swift. For Swift to have overstated his case, when
> it's
> personal, is not unusual, in fact, it is human nature to do so, when
> you
> are trying to convince someone else. You seem convinced that Swift was
>
> completely altruistic here, I and I think a few others are not. His
> letters
> go far beyond the point of altruism, and smack of personal feelings.
> Well
> said, yes, but personal none the less. When it gets personal, it gets
> ugly,
> and lies, or half-truths are not at all unusual. Even if someone
> writing
> about it later takes Swift's side, and agrees with him, is it based
> solely
> upon FACT, or at least SOME supposition? Do not take Swift's(
> Drapier's)
> letters at FULL face value, as you seem to be doing. I believe it is a
>
> trap, and you would do well to avoid it. Look at ALL the facts first,
> then
> decide. David
>
> Original Message:
> -----------------
> From: johnmenc@optonline.net
> Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2005 16:55:36 -0000
> To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Spam:Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Why Silver Wood Pieces Syd???
>
>
>
>
> <html><body>
>
>
>
> <tt>
> 
> My guess is that you "MAY" have a change in opinion after reading 
>
> some of Swift's=A0 merchant examples that he portrays in the 
> Drapier's ... in terms of merchant transactions and the problems 
> that will come about if you are a merchant and if you are STUCK with
> 
> Wood's underweight coinage after or during a transaction. Swift 
> retrieved many merchant signatures who felt this underweight coinage
> 
> was simply - NO GOOD for the Irish economy which he used as PROOF 
>
> that this coinage was not suitable for the people of Ireland. This
> 
> was IMHO a little different than a Conder token which was backed by
> 
> a reputable merchant as "good money." This Wood Brass money was more
> 
> of a hinderance to the merchants when having to deal with BOTH good
> 
> weight EXISTING regal money and this NEW and undesirable underweight
> 
> brass (as Swift calls it) halfpence & farthings. Again its 
> underweight "status" would ALSO make it "that much easier" for the
> 
> counterfeiter to make & pass. 
> IMHO Swifts arguments, the counterfeiting argument and the multiple
> 
> merchant examples in the Drapier's go WAY BEYOND as just being 
> POLITICAL but more of a nature of COMMON SENSE. 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com, Ray Williams <njraywms@o...>
> 
> wrote: 
> > John, 
> >=A0=A0=A0=A0 I don't think that Swift would have been politically 
> motivated, at all, to give an inaccurate report of the weights of 
>
> Wood's coinages <BG>=A0 I have a feeling that with respect to the 
> copper coinage, being up to weight was not as important as what was
> 
> accepted or not accepted (politics).=A0 Most copper coinage was a 
> token coinage and did not contain the full value of the coin in its
> 
> copper content, unlike the silver and gold coinages which did.=A0=A0 
> > Ray 
> >=A0=A0 ----- Original Message ----- 
> >=A0=A0 From: johnmenc@o... 
> >=A0=A0 To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com 
> >=A0=A0 Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 10:58 AM 
> >=A0=A0 Subject: Spam:Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Why Silver Wood Pieces
> 
> Syd??? 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >=A0=A0 Good point Syd - the deviation is/appears small - however it 
> would 
> >=A0=A0 be interesting to correlate your current findings to Swift's 
> >=A0=A0 examples in the Drapier's in terms of his arguments/examples 
> with 
> >=A0=A0 various merchants receiving Wood's underweight coinage and the
> 
> >=A0=A0 RESULTING LOSS the merchant would find himself in when accepting
> 
> >=A0=A0 this coinage. A cross-comparison would be very well received in
> 
> a 
> >=A0=A0 future CNL. 
> > 
> >=A0=A0 Perhaps Swift did exaggerate a bit on the underwight issue in <BR=
>
>
> his 
> >=A0=A0 documented examples based on your calculations? I doubt Syd if
> 
> >=A0=A0 anyone has been here yet in terms of the above
> cross-comparion. 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >=A0=A0 --- In colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com, "Martin, Syd" 
> <sfmartin@c...> 
> >=A0=A0 wrote: 
> >=A0=A0 > Actually, be careful of claiming underweight.=A0 I have a sampl=
e
> 
> of 
> >=A0=A0 > approximately 1,000 pieces.=A0 The average weight is about 5 <B=
R>
> grains 
> >=A0=A0 less 
> >=A0=A0 > than standard BUT the standard deviation of the sample is 
> about 7 
> >=A0=A0 > grains.=A0 If anyone is interested, I can provide exact data (b=
y
> 
> >=A0=A0 year and 
> >=A0=A0 > by total).=A0 Remember also, that an exchange rate existed 
> between 
> >=A0=A0 > England and Ireland at the time -- their currencies were 
> not "at 
> >=A0=A0 > parity."=A0 Syd 
> >=A0=A0 > 
> >=A0=A0 > 
> >=A0=A0 > On Jan 5, 2005, at 9:43 AM, <johnmenc@o...> wrote: 
> >=A0=A0 > 
> >=A0=A0 > > 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 One thing really instructive on reading the Drapier's 
> Letters 
> >=A0=A0 (SO 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 FAR) was the importance of "coin weight" and its importanc=
e
> 
> to 
> >=A0=A0 the 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 VARIOUS merchants. Swift used=A0 this as his main argument=
 
>
> IMHO to 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 CONVINCE the merchants to boycott Wood's BRASS (as he 
> called 
> >=A0=A0 this 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 coinage)of halfpence and farthings. There is also some
> great 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 arguments on how this coinage will leave the people open <=
BR>
>
> >=A0=A0 to "MORE" 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 underweight bogus counterfeit halfpence as Wood's pieces <=
BR>
>
> were 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 already counterfeit "in nature" as being underweight. He <=
BR>
>
> >=A0=A0 supplies 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 some classic merchants examples on how their businesses <B=
R>
> will 
> >=A0=A0 suffer 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 on accepting this underwight coinage. 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 There is never a mention of the word "shilling" in any of
> 
> the 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 Drapier Letters. 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 I keep thinking the silver pieces were for die testing or
> 
> for 
> >=A0=A0 some 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 form type of presentation example. No hint in the 
> Drapier's - 
> >=A0=A0 but 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 then again - why would there be ... the coinage being 
> rejected 
> >=A0=A0 in my 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 mind was not really political ... Swift is right ... what
> 
> >=A0=A0 advantage 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 would it be for the merchants of Ireland to accept brass <=
BR>
>
> coinage 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 which is underweight to their CURRENT English counterpart<=
BR>
>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 coinage ... even if there was a REAL need for non- 
> silver/gold 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 coinage for the working class people of Ireland. His 
> examples 
> >=A0=A0 again 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 are great and HIT HOME. 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 I am not convinced at all - that since we now have to pay
> 
> four 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 digits for a 1723 UNC halfpence that this would lead me to
> 
> be 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 convinced that this coinage was feely accepted in Ireland =
-
> 
> TO 
> >=A0=A0 ANY 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 DEGREE AT ALL !!! 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 The hell with this underwight bogus halfpence - I am with
> 
> you 
> >=A0=A0 SWIFT - 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 ship this GARBAGE to the COLONIES - ALL OF IT! 
> >=A0=A0 > > 
> >=A0=A0 > > 
> >=A0=A0 > > 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 --- In colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com, Ray Williams 
> >=A0=A0 <njraywms@o...> 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 wrote: 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 > Thanks Jack, that will give me something to read on a <B=
R>
> snowy 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 evening.=A0 I don't know if it's the same source that JPL =
had
> 
> >=A0=A0 shared, 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 but it certainly will give me what I'm looking for. 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 > Ray 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0 ----- Original Message ----- 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0 From: Jack Howes 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0 To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0 Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 9:40 PM 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0 Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Why Silver Woo=
d 
> Pieces 
> >=A0=A0 Syd??? 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 > 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 > 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0 Ray, 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 > 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0 Here is a link to an etext of Swift's Drapier's
> Letters: 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 > 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0 <a
>
>
ref=3D"http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/1/2/7/8/12784/12784-8.txt">http://www.=
gu
>
> tenberg.org/dirs/1/2/7/8/12784/12784-8.txt</a> 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0 ----- Original Message ----- 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0 From: Ray Williams 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0 To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0 Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 5:27 PM 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0 Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Why Silv=
er Wood
> 
> Pieces 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 Syd??? 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 > 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 > 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0 John, 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Could you share what site you do=
wnloaded the
> below 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 information?=A0 It's interesting and I'd like to read a <B=
R>
> little 
> >=A0=A0 more on 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 the topic. 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0 Ray 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 ----- Original Message ----- 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 From: johnmenc@o... 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 4:36 P=
M 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Subject: [Colonial Numismatics] Why Si=
lver Wood 
> Pieces 
> >=A0=A0 Syd??? 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 > 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 > 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 > 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 As is well known William Wood had issu=
ed quantities
> 
> of 
> >=A0=A0 regal 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 halfpennies and farthings for Ireland =
in 1722 and
> 
> 1723, 
> >=A0=A0 but 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 these 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 had been extremely unpopular, even tho=
ugh the last
> 
> >=A0=A0 copper 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 issue had 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 been in 1696 and shortages were starti=
ng to appear.
> 
> This 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 popularity 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 was in part the result of a campaign, =
given 
> intellectual 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 force by 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Swift's Drapier's Letters, which, in t=
he spirit of
> 
> the 
> >=A0=A0 age, 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 refused 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 to accept the advantages of a separati=
on between 
>
> face 
> >=A0=A0 and 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 intrinsic 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 value for the smaller denominations.<B=
R>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 > 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Swift's arguments were based on politi=
cal animus 
>
> and 
> >=A0=A0 some 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 rather 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 shakey economics. The American colonis=
ts proved
> more 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 amenable and 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Mr. Wood's coins were shipped off acro=
ss the ocean.
> 
> >=A0=A0 Before 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 Wood's 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 issue, it was said that 'considerable =
manufacturers
> 
> were 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 obliged to 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 pay their men with tallies or token in=
cards, 
> signed 
> >=A0=A0 upon 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 the back, 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 to be afterwards exchanged for money..=
: 2 
> Subsequently, 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 there may 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 well have been a recurrence of the per=
ennial 
> shortage of 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 coinage in 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Ireland, bin this must have been alevi=
nted, at 
> least m 
> >=A0=A0 part. 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 by the 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 issue of regal halfpence in 1736-38, 1=
741-44, and
> 
> >=A0=A0 farthings 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 in 1737, 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 1738 and 1744, to take only the most r=
elevant
> years. 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 > 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Syd - I am currently reading the Drapi=
er Letters -
> 
> its 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 interesting I 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 can find no mention of the word "SILVE=
R." Were 
> these 
> >=A0=A0 just 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 experimental mint pieces or less likel=
y 
> presentation 
> >=A0=A0 pieces? 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 What 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 are your thoughts on this matter???<BR=
>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 > 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 > 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 > 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 > 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 > 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 > 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >
> ---------------------------------------------------------- 
> ---- 
> >=A0=A0 ----- 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 ----------- 
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URL di origine

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/colonial-coins/info

Data di pubblicazione

2005-01-08

Volume

[Colonial Numismatics] Why Silver Wood Pieces Syd??? Pubblico Deposited

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