Article | Spam | ID: Article549272

Contenido del artículo

From palmers4@erols.com Sat Jan 08 13:49:51 2005
Return-Path: <palmers4@erols.com>
X-Sender: palmers4@erols.com
X-Apparently-To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
Received: (qmail 72304 invoked from network); 8 Jan 2005 21:49:50 -0000
Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166)
by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Jan 2005 21:49:50 -0000
Received: from unknown (HELO relay3.mail2web.com) (168.144.1.83)
by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Jan 2005 21:49:50 -0000
Received: from M2W065.mail2web.com ([168.144.251.174]) by relay3.mail2web.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713);
Sat, 8 Jan 2005 16:49:49 -0500
Message-ID: <149510-22005168214949286@M2W065.mail2web.com>
X-Priority: 3
X-URL: http://mail2web.com/
To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 16:49:49 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Return-Path: palmers4@erols.com
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Jan 2005 21:49:49.0441 (UTC) FILETIME=[F9FBC710:01C4F5CB]
X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 168.144.1.83
From: "palmers4@erols.com" <palmers4@erols.com>
Reply-To: palmers4@erols.com
X-Originating-IP: 24.186.152.222
Subject: RE: Spam:Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Why Silver Wood Pieces Syd???
X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=35383343
X-Yahoo-Profile: dp1787

John, I do not discount Davis( haven't read it), and I believe your
suggestion for Syd to avail himdself of the book is a good one. My main
point is that Swift was a novelist, and some or all of the perceived
potential problems he enumerated with the underweight brass coinage, could
very well have been made up, in order to make a more convincing argument.
If you want to ring the death knell of Wood's coinage, convince the
merchants that by accepting it your are taking money out of their pockets.
Even those that did not agree, or could prove it untrue, would be loath to
accept it, as they would not be able to spend it, and then that would cost
them.=20
Even the Wood's pieces coming out of the UK now, are pretty well
circulated, so I think they did in fact circulate, at least for awhile,
hence the number of letters needed to do the convincing. This is by no
means an open and closed case of THIS vs. THAT. I have not had any interest
in Wood's coinage in the past, but I eagerly await Syd's book, as I do like
to learn, and I believe the book will teach me. I may never care about the
coinage as a potential collection, but it will be nice to learn about it.
David=20

Original Message:
-----------------
From: johnmenc@optonline.net
Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 20:56:42 -0000
To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Spam:Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Why Silver Wood Pieces Syd???

<html><body>

<tt>
 
This is exactly my point Dave in terms of Syd needing to review 
Davis in detail to get more of the facts here... 
 
This is not a situation on the factual VALIDITY of Swifts comments 
as a determining factor on the degree of circulation of Wood's Brass 
pieces as Swift calls them but the overal EFFECT of Swifts comments 
on the OVERALL degree of circulation in 1723 and 1724. 
 
Further ... Davis's overview of the Drapiers along with other 
NUMEROUS historical documents he reviews and comments in his book 
will OPEN THE EYES of the researcher to the detremental effects 
these latters had on this ability of this coinage to freely 
circulate in Ireland. This degree is left for the reader at this 
point in time within C4. 
 
 
 
 
 
--- In colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com, "palmers4@e..." 
<palmers4@e...> wrote: 
> John, I have been trying to stay out of this dialogue between you 
and Syd, 
> as I thought Syd was doing well in stating his case. I think you 
are 
> missing something. Based on what I have read of the Drapier 
letters, and I 
> admit, I have not read every word, there was a personal vendetta 
going on 
> between Wood, and Swift. For Swift to have overstated his case, 
when it's 
> personal, is not unusual, in fact, it is human nature to do so, 
when you 
> are trying to convince someone else. You seem convinced that Swift 
was 
> completely altruistic here, I and I think a few others are not. 
His letters 
> go far beyond the point of altruism, and smack of personal 
feelings. Well 
> said, yes, but personal none the less. When it gets personal, it 
gets ugly, 
> and lies, or half-truths are not at all unusual. Even if someone 
writing 
> about it later takes Swift's side, and agrees with him, is it 
based solely 
> upon FACT, or at least SOME supposition? Do not take Swift's( 
Drapier's) 
> letters at FULL face value, as you seem to be doing. I believe it 
is a 
> trap, and you would do well to avoid it. Look at ALL the facts 
first, then 
> decide. David 
> 
> Original Message: 
> ----------------- 
> From:=A0 johnmenc@o... 
> Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2005 16:55:36 -0000 
> To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com 
> Subject: Spam:Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Why Silver Wood Pieces 
Syd??? 
> 
> 
> 
> <html><body> 
> 
> 
> 
> <tt> 
> 
> My guess is that you "MAY" have a change in opinion after reading 
 
> some of Swift's=A0 merchant examples that he portrays in the 
> Drapier's ... in terms of merchant transactions and the problems 
 
> that will come about if you are a merchant and if you are STUCK 
with 
> Wood's underweight coinage after or during a transaction. Swift 
 
> retrieved many merchant signatures who felt this underweight 
coinage 
> was simply - NO GOOD for the Irish economy which he used as PROOF 
 
> that this coinage was not suitable for the people of Ireland. This 
 
> was IMHO a little different than a Conder token which was backed 
by 
> a reputable merchant as "good money." This Wood Brass money was 
more 
> of a hinderance to the merchants when having to deal with BOTH 
good 
> weight EXISTING regal money and this NEW and undesirable 
underweight 
> brass (as Swift calls it) halfpence & farthings. Again its 
> underweight "status" would ALSO make it "that much easier" for the 
 
> counterfeiter to make & pass. 
> IMHO Swifts arguments, the counterfeiting argument and the 
multiple 
> merchant examples in the Drapier's go WAY BEYOND as just being 
> POLITICAL but more of a nature of COMMON SENSE. 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com, Ray Williams 
<njraywms@o...> 
> wrote: 
> > John, 
> >=A0=A0=A0=A0 I don't think that Swift would have been politically <B=
R>
> motivated, at all, to give an inaccurate report of the weights of 
 
> Wood's coinages <BG>=A0 I have a feeling that with respect to the 
 
> copper coinage, being up to weight was not as important as what 
was 
> accepted or not accepted (politics).=A0 Most copper coinage was a 
 
> token coinage and did not contain the full value of the coin in 
its 
> copper content, unlike the silver and gold coinages which did.=A0=A0 
 
> > Ray 
> >=A0=A0 ----- Original Message ----- 
> >=A0=A0 From: johnmenc@o... 
> >=A0=A0 To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com 
> >=A0=A0 Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 10:58 AM 
> >=A0=A0 Subject: Spam:Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Why Silver Wood 
Pieces 
> Syd??? 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >=A0=A0 Good point Syd - the deviation is/appears small - however it 
 
> would 
> >=A0=A0 be interesting to correlate your current findings to Swift's 
 
> >=A0=A0 examples in the Drapier's in terms of his arguments/examples 
 
> with 
> >=A0=A0 various merchants receiving Wood's underweight coinage and the <B=
R>
 
> >=A0=A0 RESULTING LOSS the merchant would find himself in when 
accepting 
> >=A0=A0 this coinage. A cross-comparison would be very well received 
in 
> a 
> >=A0=A0 future CNL. 
> > 
> >=A0=A0 Perhaps Swift did exaggerate a bit on the underwight issue in <BR=
>
 
> his 
> >=A0=A0 documented examples based on your calculations? I doubt Syd if <B=
R>
 
> >=A0=A0 anyone has been here yet in terms of the above cross- 
comparion. 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >=A0=A0 --- In colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com, "Martin, Syd" 
> <sfmartin@c...> 
> >=A0=A0 wrote: 
> >=A0=A0 > Actually, be careful of claiming underweight.=A0 I have a 
sample 
> of 
> >=A0=A0 > approximately 1,000 pieces.=A0 The average weight is about 5 <B=
R>
 
> grains 
> >=A0=A0 less 
> >=A0=A0 > than standard BUT the standard deviation of the sample is 
 
> about 7 
> >=A0=A0 > grains.=A0 If anyone is interested, I can provide exact data <B=
R>
(by 
> >=A0=A0 year and 
> >=A0=A0 > by total).=A0 Remember also, that an exchange rate existed =
 
> between 
> >=A0=A0 > England and Ireland at the time -- their currencies were <B=
R>
> not "at 
> >=A0=A0 > parity."=A0 Syd 
> >=A0=A0 > 
> >=A0=A0 > 
> >=A0=A0 > On Jan 5, 2005, at 9:43 AM, <johnmenc@o...> wrote: 
> >=A0=A0 > 
> >=A0=A0 > > 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 One thing really instructive on reading the Drapier's =
 
> Letters 
> >=A0=A0 (SO 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 FAR) was the importance of "coin weight" and its 
importance 
> to 
> >=A0=A0 the 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 VARIOUS merchants. Swift used=A0 this as his main argument=
 
 
> IMHO to 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 CONVINCE the merchants to boycott Wood's BRASS (as he =
 
> called 
> >=A0=A0 this 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 coinage)of halfpence and farthings. There is also some <BR=
>
great 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 arguments on how this coinage will leave the people open <=
BR>
 
> >=A0=A0 to "MORE" 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 underweight bogus counterfeit halfpence as Wood's pieces <=
BR>
 
> were 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 already counterfeit "in nature" as being underweight. He <=
BR>
 
> >=A0=A0 supplies 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 some classic merchants examples on how their businesses <B=
R>
 
> will 
> >=A0=A0 suffer 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 on accepting this underwight coinage. 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 There is never a mention of the word "shilling" in any of =
 
 
> the 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 Drapier Letters. 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 I keep thinking the silver pieces were for die testing or =
 
 
> for 
> >=A0=A0 some 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 form type of presentation example. No hint in the 
> Drapier's - 
> >=A0=A0 but 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 then again - why would there be ... the coinage being =
 
> rejected 
> >=A0=A0 in my 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 mind was not really political ... Swift is right ... what =
 
 
> >=A0=A0 advantage 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 would it be for the merchants of Ireland to accept brass <=
BR>
 
> coinage 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 which is underweight to their CURRENT English 
counterpart 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 coinage ... even if there was a REAL need for non- 
> silver/gold 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 coinage for the working class people of Ireland. His <=
BR>
> examples 
> >=A0=A0 again 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 are great and HIT HOME. 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 I am not convinced at all - that since we now have to pay =
 
 
> four 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 digits for a 1723 UNC halfpence that this would lead me <B=
R>
to 
> be 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 convinced that this coinage was feely accepted in 
Ireland - 
> TO 
> >=A0=A0 ANY 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 DEGREE AT ALL !!! 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 The hell with this underwight bogus halfpence - I am with =
 
 
> you 
> >=A0=A0 SWIFT - 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 ship this GARBAGE to the COLONIES - ALL OF IT! 
> >=A0=A0 > > 
> >=A0=A0 > > 
> >=A0=A0 > > 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 --- In colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com, Ray Williams <B=
R>
> >=A0=A0 <njraywms@o...> 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 wrote: 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 > Thanks Jack, that will give me something to read on a <B=
R>
 
> snowy 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 evening.=A0 I don't know if it's the same source that JPL =
 
had 
> >=A0=A0 shared, 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 but it certainly will give me what I'm looking for. <BR=
>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 > Ray 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0 ----- Original Message ----- 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0 From: Jack Howes 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0 To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0 Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 9:40 PM 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0 Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Why Silver Woo=
d 
 
> Pieces 
> >=A0=A0 Syd??? 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 > 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 > 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0 Ray, 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 > 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0 Here is a link to an etext of Swift's Drapier's <B=
R>
Letters: 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 > 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0 <a 
> href=3D"<a
href=3D"http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/1/2/7/8/12784/12784-">http://www.gute=
nbe
rg.org/dirs/1/2/7/8/12784/12784-</a> 
8.txt"><a href=3D"http://www.gu">http://www.gu</a> 
> tenberg.org/dirs/1/2/7/8/12784/12784-8.txt</a> 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0 ----- Original Message ----- 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0 From: Ray Williams 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0 To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0 Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 5:27 PM <=
BR>
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0 Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Why Silv=
er Wood 
 
> Pieces 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 Syd??? 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 > 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 > 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0 John, 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Could you share what site you do=
wnloaded the 
below 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 information?=A0 It's interesting and I'd like to read a <B=
R> 
> little 
> >=A0=A0 more on 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 the topic. 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0 Ray 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 ----- Original Message ----- 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 From: johnmenc@o... 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com =
 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 4:36 P=
M 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Subject: [Colonial Numismatics] Why Si=
lver Wood 
 
> Pieces 
> >=A0=A0 Syd??? 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 > 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 > 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 > 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 As is well known William Wood had issu=
ed 
quantities 
> of 
> >=A0=A0 regal 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 halfpennies and farthings for Ireland =
in 1722 and 
 
> 1723, 
> >=A0=A0 but 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 these 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 had been extremely unpopular, even tho=
ugh the 
last 
> >=A0=A0 copper 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 issue had 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 been in 1696 and shortages were starti=
ng to 
appear. 
> This 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 popularity 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 was in part the result of a campaign, =
given 
> intellectual 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 force by 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Swift's Drapier's Letters, which, in t=
he spirit 
of 
> the 
> >=A0=A0 age, 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 refused 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 to accept the advantages of a separati=
on between 
 
> face 
> >=A0=A0 and 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 intrinsic 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 value for the smaller denominations.<B=
R> 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 > 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Swift's arguments were based on politi=
cal animus 
 
> and 
> >=A0=A0 some 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 rather 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 shakey economics. The American colonis=
ts proved 
more 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 amenable and 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Mr. Wood's coins were shipped off acro=
ss the 
ocean. 
> >=A0=A0 Before 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 Wood's 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 issue, it was said that 'considerable =
 
manufacturers 
> were 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 obliged to 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 pay their men with tallies or token in=
cards, 
> signed 
> >=A0=A0 upon 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 the back, 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 to be afterwards exchanged for money..=
: 2 
> Subsequently, 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 there may 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 well have been a recurrence of the per=
ennial 
> shortage of 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 coinage in 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Ireland, bin this must have been alevi=
nted, at 
 
> least m 
> >=A0=A0 part. 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 by the 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 issue of regal halfpence in 1736-38, 1=
741-44, and 
 
> >=A0=A0 farthings 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 in 1737, 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 1738 and 1744, to take only the most r=
elevant 
years. 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 > 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Syd - I am currently reading the Drapi=
er Letters - 
 
> its 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 interesting I 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 can find no mention of the word "SILVE=
R." Were 
 
> these 
> >=A0=A0 just 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 experimental mint pieces or less likel=
y 
> presentation 
> >=A0=A0 pieces? 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 What 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 are your thoughts on this matter???<BR=
> 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 > 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 > 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 > 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 > 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 > 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 > 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 > --------------------------------------------------------=
 
-- 
> ---- 
> >=A0=A0 ----- 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 ----------- 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0 Yahoo! Groups Links 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 > 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0 a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:<B=
R> 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0 <a 
> href=3D"<a
href=3D"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/colonial-">http://groups.yahoo.com/gr=
oup
/colonial-</a> 
coins/"><a href=3D"http://groups.yahoo.com">http://groups.yahoo.com</a> 
> /group/colonial-coins/</a> 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0 b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an =
email 
to: 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0 colonial-coins-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com<B=
R> 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 >=A0=A0=A0=A0 c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to =
the 
> Yahoo! 
> >=A0=A0 Terms 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0 of Service. 
> >=A0=A0 > > 
> >=A0=A0 > > 
> >=A0=A0 > > 
> >=A0=A0 > > 
> >=A0=A0 > > 
> >=A0=A0 > > Yahoo! Groups Links 
> >=A0=A0 > > 
> >=A0=A0 > >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 .=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 To visit your group on =
the web, go to: 
> >=A0=A0 > > <a 
> href=3D"<a
href=3D"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/colonial-">http://groups.yahoo.com/gr=
oup
/colonial-</a> 
coins/"><a href=3D"http://groups.yahoo.com">http://groups.yahoo.com</a> 
> /group/colonial-coins/</a> 
> >

URL de origen

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/colonial-coins/info

Fecha de publicación

2005-01-08

Volumen

Spam Público Deposited

RE

[Colonial Numismatics] Why Silver Wood Pieces Syd???

Re

Relaciones

Autor NNP