[Colonial Numismatics] Why Silver Wood Pieces Syd???

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From johnmenc@optonline.net Mon Jan 10 13:38:13 2005
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Subject: Spam:Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Why Silver Wood Pieces Syd???
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Syd and I have corresponded ... so there is nothing else for me to
add to this effort ... this book is a must for any serious student
in this series.

--- In colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com, "Sydney F. Martin"
<sfmartin5@c...> wrote:
> Just for the record, I've read and studied Davis, and understand
his
> (and John's) points. However, I do not find Davis' presentations
as
> proof on non-circulation in Ireland. Again for the record, the
Davis I
> use is a 1935 edition. Syd
>
> johnmenc@o... wrote:
>
> >
> > This is exactly my point Dave in terms of Syd needing to review
> > Davis in detail to get more of the facts here...
> >
> > This is not a situation on the factual VALIDITY of Swifts
comments
> > as a determining factor on the degree of circulation of Wood's
Brass
> > pieces as Swift calls them but the overal EFFECT of Swifts
comments
> > on the OVERALL degree of circulation in 1723 and 1724.
> >
> > Further ... Davis's overview of the Drapiers along with other
> > NUMEROUS historical documents he reviews and comments in his book
> > will OPEN THE EYES of the researcher to the detremental effects
> > these latters had on this ability of this coinage to freely
> > circulate in Ireland. This degree is left for the reader at this
> > point in time within C4.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com, "palmers4@e..."
> > <palmers4@e...> wrote:
> > > John, I have been trying to stay out of this dialogue between
you
> > and Syd,
> > > as I thought Syd was doing well in stating his case. I think
you
> > are
> > > missing something. Based on what I have read of the Drapier
> > letters, and I
> > > admit, I have not read every word, there was a personal
vendetta
> > going on
> > > between Wood, and Swift. For Swift to have overstated his case,
> > when it's
> > > personal, is not unusual, in fact, it is human nature to do so,
> > when you
> > > are trying to convince someone else. You seem convinced that
Swift
> > was
> > > completely altruistic here, I and I think a few others are not.
> > His letters
> > > go far beyond the point of altruism, and smack of personal
> > feelings. Well
> > > said, yes, but personal none the less. When it gets personal,
it
> > gets ugly,
> > > and lies, or half-truths are not at all unusual. Even if
someone
> > writing
> > > about it later takes Swift's side, and agrees with him, is it
> > based solely
> > > upon FACT, or at least SOME supposition? Do not take Swift's(
> > Drapier's)
> > > letters at FULL face value, as you seem to be doing. I believe
it
> > is a
> > > trap, and you would do well to avoid it. Look at ALL the facts
> > first, then
> > > decide. David
> > >
> > > Original Message:
> > > -----------------
> > > From: johnmenc@o...
> > > Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2005 16:55:36 -0000
> > > To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: Spam:Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Why Silver Wood Pieces
> > Syd???
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > <html><body>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > <tt>
> > > 
> > > My guess is that you "MAY" have a change in opinion after
reading
> > 
> > > some of Swift's merchant examples that he portrays in the 
> > > Drapier's ... in terms of merchant transactions and the
problems
> > 
> > > that will come about if you are a merchant and if you are STUCK
> > with 
> > > Wood's underweight coinage after or during a transaction. Swift
> > 
> > > retrieved many merchant signatures who felt this underweight
> > coinage 
> > > was simply - NO GOOD for the Irish economy which he used as
PROOF
> > 
> > > that this coinage was not suitable for the people of Ireland.
This
> > 
> > > was IMHO a little different than a Conder token which was
backed
> > by 
> > > a reputable merchant as "good money." This Wood Brass money was
> > more 
> > > of a hinderance to the merchants when having to deal with BOTH
> > good 
> > > weight EXISTING regal money and this NEW and undesirable
> > underweight 
> > > brass (as Swift calls it) halfpence & farthings. Again its 
> > > underweight "status" would ALSO make it "that much easier" for
the
> > 
> > > counterfeiter to make & pass. 
> > > IMHO Swifts arguments, the counterfeiting argument and the
> > multiple 
> > > merchant examples in the Drapier's go WAY BEYOND as just being
 
> > > POLITICAL but more of a nature of COMMON SENSE. 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > --- In colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com, Ray Williams
> > <njraywms@o...> 
> > > wrote: 
> > > > John, 
> > > > I don't think that Swift would have been politically 
> > > motivated, at all, to give an inaccurate report of the weights
of
> > 
> > > Wood's coinages <BG> I have a feeling that with respect to the
> > 
> > > copper coinage, being up to weight was not as important as what
> > was 
> > > accepted or not accepted (politics). Most copper coinage was a
> > 
> > > token coinage and did not contain the full value of the coin in
> > its 
> > > copper content, unlike the silver and gold coinages which
did.
> > 
> > > > Ray 
> > > > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > > > From: johnmenc@o... 
> > > > To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com 
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 10:58 AM 
> > > > Subject: Spam:Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Why Silver Wood
> > Pieces 
> > > Syd??? 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Good point Syd - the deviation is/appears small - however
it
> > 
> > > would 
> > > > be interesting to correlate your current findings to
Swift's
> > 
> > > > examples in the Drapier's in terms of his
arguments/examples
> > 
> > > with 
> > > > various merchants receiving Wood's underweight coinage and
the
> > 
> > > > RESULTING LOSS the merchant would find himself in when
> > accepting 
> > > > this coinage. A cross-comparison would be very well
received
> > in 
> > > a 
> > > > future CNL. 
> > > > 
> > > > Perhaps Swift did exaggerate a bit on the underwight issue
in
> > 
> > > his 
> > > > documented examples based on your calculations? I doubt
Syd if
> > 
> > > > anyone has been here yet in terms of the above cross-
> > comparion. 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > --- In colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com, "Martin, Syd" 
> > > <sfmartin@c...> 
> > > > wrote: 
> > > > > Actually, be careful of claiming underweight. I have a
> > sample 
> > > of 
> > > > > approximately 1,000 pieces. The average weight is about
5
> > 
> > > grains 
> > > > less 
> > > > > than standard BUT the standard deviation of the sample is
> > 
> > > about 7 
> > > > > grains. If anyone is interested, I can provide exact
data
> > (by 
> > > > year and 
> > > > > by total). Remember also, that an exchange rate existed
 
> > > between 
> > > > > England and Ireland at the time -- their currencies were
 
> > > not "at 
> > > > > parity." Syd 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > On Jan 5, 2005, at 9:43 AM, <johnmenc@o...> wrote: 
> > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > One thing really instructive on reading the Drapier's
 
> > > Letters 
> > > > (SO 
> > > > > > FAR) was the importance of "coin weight" and its
> > importance 
> > > to 
> > > > the 
> > > > > > VARIOUS merchants. Swift used this as his main
argument
> > 
> > > IMHO to 
> > > > > > CONVINCE the merchants to boycott Wood's BRASS (as he
 
> > > called 
> > > > this 
> > > > > > coinage)of halfpence and farthings. There is also some
> > great 
> > > > > > arguments on how this coinage will leave the people
open
> > 
> > > > to "MORE" 
> > > > > > underweight bogus counterfeit halfpence as Wood's
pieces
> > 
> > > were 
> > > > > > already counterfeit "in nature" as being underweight.
He
> > 
> > > > supplies 
> > > > > > some classic merchants examples on how their
businesses
> > 
> > > will 
> > > > suffer 
> > > > > > on accepting this underwight coinage. 
> > > > > > There is never a mention of the word "shilling" in
any of
> > 
> > > the 
> > > > > > Drapier Letters. 
> > > > > > I keep thinking the silver pieces were for die
testing or
> > 
> > > for 
> > > > some 
> > > > > > form type of presentation example. No hint in the 
> > > Drapier's - 
> > > > but 
> > > > > > then again - why would there be ... the coinage being
 
> > > rejected 
> > > > in my 
> > > > > > mind was not really political ... Swift is right ...
what
> > 
> > > > advantage 
> > > > > > would it be for the merchants of Ireland to accept
brass
> > 
> > > coinage 
> > > > > > which is underweight to their CURRENT English
> > counterpart 
> > > > > > coinage ... even if there was a REAL need for non- 
> > > silver/gold 
> > > > > > coinage for the working class people of Ireland. His
 
> > > examples 
> > > > again 
> > > > > > are great and HIT HOME. 
> > > > > > I am not convinced at all - that since we now have to
pay
> > 
> > > four 
> > > > > > digits for a 1723 UNC halfpence that this would lead
me
> > to 
> > > be 
> > > > > > convinced that this coinage was feely accepted in
> > Ireland - 
> > > TO 
> > > > ANY 
> > > > > > DEGREE AT ALL !!! 
> > > > > > The hell with this underwight bogus halfpence - I am
with
> > 
> > > you 
> > > > SWIFT - 
> > > > > > ship this GARBAGE to the COLONIES - ALL OF IT! 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > --- In colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com, Ray Williams
 
> > > > <njraywms@o...> 
> > > > > > wrote: 
> > > > > > > Thanks Jack, that will give me something to read on
a
> > 
> > > snowy 
> > > > > > evening. I don't know if it's the same source that
JPL
> > had 
> > > > shared, 
> > > > > > but it certainly will give me what I'm looking
for. 
> > > > > > > Ray 
> > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > > > > > > From: Jack Howes 
> > > > > > > To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com 
> > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 9:40 PM 
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Why Silver
Wood
> > 
> > > Pieces 
> > > > Syd??? 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Ray, 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Here is a link to an etext of Swift's Drapier's
> > Letters: 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > <a
> > > href="http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/1/2/7/8/12784/12784-
> > 8.txt">http://www.gu
> > > tenberg.org/dirs/1/2/7/8/12784/12784-8.txt</a> 
> > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > > > > > > From: Ray Williams 
> > > > > > > To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com 
> > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 5:27 PM 
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Why Silver
Wood
> > 
> > > Pieces 
> > > > > > Syd??? 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > John, 
> > > > > > > Could you share what site you downloaded the
> > below 
> > > > > > information? It's interesting and I'd like to read a
 
> > > little 
> > > > more on 
> > > > > > the topic. 
> > > > > > > Ray 
> > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > > > > > > From: johnmenc@o... 
> > > > > > > To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com 
> > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 4:36 PM 
> > > > > > > Subject: [Colonial Numismatics] Why Silver
Wood
> > 
> > > Pieces 
> > > > Syd??? 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > As is well known William Wood had issued
> > quantities 
> > > of 
> > > > regal 
> > > > > > > halfpennies and farthings for Ireland in 1722
and
> > 
> > > 1723, 
> > > > but 
> > > > > > these 
> > > > > > > had been extremely unpopular, even though the
> > last 
> > > > copper 
> > > > > > issue had 
> > > > > > > been in 1696 and shortages were starting to
> > appear. 
> > > This 
> > > > > > popularity 
> > > > > > > was in part the result of a campaign, given
 
> > > intellectual 
> > > > > > force by 
> > > > > > > Swift's Drapier's Letters, which, in the
spirit
> > of 
> > > the 
> > > > age, 
> > > > > > refused 
> > > > > > > to accept the advantages of a separation
between
> > 
> > > face 
> > > > and 
> > > > > > intrinsic 
> > > > > > > value for the smaller denominations. 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Swift's arguments were based on political
animus
> > 
> > > and 
> > > > some 
> > > > > > rather 
> > > > > > > shakey economics. The American colonists
proved
> > more 
> > > > > > amenable and 
> > > > > > > Mr. Wood's coins were shipped off across the
> > ocean. 
> > > > Before 
> > > > > > Wood's 
> > > > > > > issue, it was said that 'considerable
> > manufacturers 
> > > were 
> > > > > > obliged to 
> > > > > > > pay their men with tallies or token in cards,
 
> > > signed 
> > > > upon 
> > > > > > the back, 
> > > > > > > to be afterwards exchanged for money..: 2 
> > > Subsequently, 
> > > > > > there may 
> > > > > > > well have been a recurrence of the perennial
 
> > > shortage of 
> > > > > > coinage in 
> > > > > > > Ireland, bin this must have been alevinted, at
> > 
> > > least m 
> > > > part. 
> > > > > > by the 
> > > > > > > issue of regal halfpence in 1736-38, 1741-44,
and
> > 
> > > > farthings 
> > > > > > in 1737, 
> > > > > > > 1738 and 1744, to take only the most relevant
> > years. 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Syd - I am currently reading the Drapier
Letters -
> > 
> > > its 
> > > > > > interesting I 
> > > > > > > can find no mention of the word "SILVER." Were
> > 
> > > these 
> > > > just 
> > > > > > > experimental mint pieces or less likely 
> > > presentation 
> > > > pieces? 
> > > > > > What 
> > > > > > > are your thoughts on this matter??? 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------
----
> > -- 
> > > ---- 
> > > > ----- 
> > > > > > ----------- 
> > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: 
> > > > > > > <a
> > > href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/colonial-
> > coins/">http://groups.yahoo.com
> > > /group/colonial-coins/</a> 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an
email
> > to: 
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> > > > > > > 
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> > > Yahoo! 
> > > > Terms 
> > > > > > of Service. 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > . To visit your group on the web, go
to: 
> > > > > > <a
> > > href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/colonial-
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> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > -------------------------------------------------------------
----
> > -- 
> > > ----------- 
> > > > Yahoo! Groups Links 
> > > > 
> > > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: 
> > > > <a
> > > href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/colonial-
> > coins/">http://groups.yahoo.com
> > > /group/colonial-coins/</a> 
> > > > 
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> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > </tt>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > 
> > >
> > > 
> > > <tt><hr width="500">
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links 
> > > <ul>
> > > <li>To visit your group on the web, go to: <a
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URL di origine

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/colonial-coins/info

Data di pubblicazione

2005-01-10

Volume

[Colonial Numismatics] Why Silver Wood Pieces Syd??? Pubblico Deposited

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Autore NNP