JCS REPLY Countermarked New Jersey Copper

Article content

From JCSpilman1@Comcast.NET Tue Jan 11 06:08:35 2005
Return-Path: <JCSpilman1@comcast.net>
X-Sender: JCSpilman1@comcast.net
X-Apparently-To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
Received: (qmail 24733 invoked from network); 11 Jan 2005 14:08:34 -0000
Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218)
by m21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Jan 2005 14:08:34 -0000
Received: from unknown (HELO sccrmhc13.comcast.net) (204.127.202.64)
by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Jan 2005 14:08:34 -0000
Received: from comcast.net (pcp01538800pcs.huntsv01.al.comcast.net[68.62.228.83])
by comcast.net (sccrmhc13) with SMTP
id <200501111358470160022ifje>; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 13:58:48 +0000
Message-ID: <41E3DB96.273C72E@comcast.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 07:58:47 -0600
Organization: CNLF/eSIG/JEANe/ThePhoenixProjecct
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.8 (Macintosh; U; PPC)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
X-Priority: 1 (Highest)
References: <012e01c4f79a$6d1e19d0$6400a8c0@cionmaster>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="------------9C5AC23D5EA16646F49A4958"
X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 204.127.202.64
From: JCSpilman <JCSpilman1@Comcast.NET>
Reply-To: JCSpilman1@comcast.net
Subject: JCS REPLY Countermarked New Jersey Copper
X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=154441963
X-Yahoo-Profile: jcspilman1

--------------9C5AC23D5EA16646F49A4958
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Clem - -

This is known as collateral damage and is the result of metal flow under
high pressure during the time that the pressure exceeds the yield
strength of a metal and it reacts as a liquid.

It is actually a sub-set of Isostacy phenomena.

Jim/CNLF

-------------------------------------------

"Clement V. Schettino" wrote:

> Hey Ray,
>
> Very good observation! It never dawned on me to think about it. I
> don�t know how this occurred, maybe Jim does, Jim?
>
> Clem
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ray Williams [mailto:njraywms@optonline.net]
> Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2005 6:32 PM
> To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Countermarked New Jersey Copper
>
> Clem,
> I find it interesting that some of the serrated edging is on the
> reverse. I wonder why?
> Ray
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Clement V. Schettino
> To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
> Cc: bobm@cfl.rr.com
> Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2005 1:14 PM
> Subject: RE: [Colonial Numismatics] Countermarked New Jersey
> Copper
> Hey Bob,
>
> Thanks a lot for the info.
>
> I have a few British G II with this type of countermark,
> image attached and sent to you privately, and a few other
> different types of countermarks on G II and G III�s as well.
> I think I posted a few here in the past but didn�t notice
> much interest in them? If you would like I�d be happy to
> send images to you privately for your files, if you study
> and track these things?
>
> BTW, yes, I�d like to see that Gibb�s image
>
> Clem
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bob Merchant [mailto:bobm@cfl.rr.com]
> Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2005 10:59 AM
> To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Countermarked New Jersey
> Copper
>
>
> Clem,
>
> I have seen about 5-10 New Jersey copper countermarks. They
> usually
> consist of large initials within a decorated or serrated
> retangular
> depression. Your countermark is unlike any I have seen
> before. The
> interesting decorative borders that are carved into the
> background
> around the edges lead me to believe that the punch maker had
> an
> artistic flair. The style of the letters is typical of an
> amateurs
> attempt to carve reversed type into a die punch.
>
> The die punch appears to have been made by the consumer, as
> opposed
> to a craftsman who specialized in producing maker's marks -
> such as a
> stenciler or logotyper. In this case, the consumer was
> probably
> either a tool owner (who stamped their tools and other
> implements
> with this mark), or an artist who used the mark to stamp
> their
> products, such as ceramic jugs or possibly some type of
> crude
> metalware.
>
> To answer Dave's question - owner's marks were used to stamp
> tools
> and other valuable items, to indicate ownership (like cattle
> are
> branded). If a tool "walked away" from your shop, it would
> (hopefully) be returned since your initials were on it. I
> have seen
> antique tools with the owner's marks bashed out, which
> probably
> indicates that it was stolen (this is like wiping out the
> VIN on a
> stolen car).
>
> I can provide a scan of the Gibb's countermark if no one
> else is able
> to.
>
> Bob M.
>
> --- In colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com, "Clement V.
> Schettino"
> <copperclem@c...> wrote:
> > THANKS Chris,
> >
> >
> >
> > And yes, I would like to see a scan of the ctsp'd NJ.
> >
> >
> >
> > Clem
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Chris Stevens [mailto:noe1oak@y...]
> > Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2005 1:49 PM
> > To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: RE: [Colonial Numismatics] Countermarked New
> Jersey Copper
> >
> >
> >
> > Nice coin Clem....
> >
> > Just as an FYI to anyone interested in these c/s NJ's,
> > there is a nice example with SM in a serrated
> > rectangle, plated in the 66' Shulman sale of Gibbs'
> > c/s pieces. If there's any interest, I'll try to fire
> > up my scanner to post an image.
> > It was one of several coins speculated to have a Saint
> > Martin c/s. What was speculation in 1966 seems
> > completely unlikely today...maybe this was just
> > wishful thinking by Gibbs, who interestingly enough
> > catalogued the sale himself!
> >
> > It would be nice to think that if you ever have to
> > sell your collection, you could describe/grade &
> > provide estimated values on all your own coins! That
> > seems more like a FPL than an auction....
> >
> > -CS
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- "Clement V. Schettino" <copperclem@c...>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hey Bob,
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Attached is the only NJ I own with a countermark on
> > > it. I can't tell from my
> > > crappy scan if it has the four dots between the
> > > letters but will check next
> > > time I'm at the bank.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Is there anything you can tell me about the
> > > countermark?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > Clem
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Bob Merchant [mailto:bobm@c...]
> > > Sent: Friday, January 07, 2005 3:12 PM
> > > To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: [Colonial Numismatics] Countermarked New
> > > Jersey Copper
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Attached are two images of a New Jersey copper that
> > > has been countermarked.
> > > The images were sent to me by a fellow "coin
> > > silverware" collector. I have
> > > probably seen 5-10 New Jersey coppers with this type
> > > of "large initial"
> > > countermark. I explained to my friend that this is
> > > probably a blacksmith,
> > > craftsman, or owner mark. This type of mark is
> > > often seen on antique tools.
> > > I have a couple of countermarks in my collection
> > > that have the "four dots
> > > between the letters", like this one has. It must
> > > have been a popular type
> > > of early mark decoration.
> > >
> > > Bob M.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _____
> > >
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > > * To visit your group on the web, go to:
> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/colonial-coins/
> > >
> > >
> > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an
> > > email to:
> > > colonial-coins-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > >
> > <mailto:colonial-coins-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?
> subject=Unsubscribe>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > the Yahoo! Terms of
> > > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Service.
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> > > Version: 7.0.296 / Virus Database: 265.6.8 - Release
> > > Date: 1/3/2005
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > > ATTACHMENT part 2 image/jpeg name=23-P_GFcs.jpg
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn
> more.
> > http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
> >
> >
> >
> > _____
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> > * To visit your group on the web, go to:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/colonial-coins/
> >
> >
> > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email
> to:
> > colonial-coins-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > <mailto:colonial-coins-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?
> subject=Unsubscribe>
> >
> >
> > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
> Yahoo! Terms
> of
> > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Service.
> >
> >
> > --
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> > Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.9 - Release Date:
> 1/6/2005
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.9 - Release Date:
> 1/6/2005
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> * To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/colonial-coins/
>
> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> colonial-coins-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service.
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.9 - Release Date: 1/6/2005
>

--------------9C5AC23D5EA16646F49A4958
Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
<body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" link="#0000FF" vlink="#0000FF" lang="EN-US">
Clem - -
This is known as collateral damage and is the result of metal flow under
high pressure during the time that the pressure exceeds the yield strength
of a metal and it reacts as a liquid.
It is actually a sub-set of Isostacy phenomena.
Jim/CNLF
-------------------------------------------
"Clement V. Schettino" wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE><style>

</style>

<div class=Section1>
<div class="MsoNormal">Hey
Ray,</div>



Very
good observation! It never dawned on me to think about it. I don�t know
how this occurred, maybe Jim does, Jim?



Clem



-----Original
Message-----
 From:
Ray Williams [<A HREF="mailto:njraywms@optonline.net">mailto:njraywms@optonline.net</A>]
 Sent:
Sunday, January 09, 2005 6:32 PM
 To:
colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
 Subject:
Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Countermarked New Jersey Copper


<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in">Clem,</div>

<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in">
I find it interesting that some of the serrated edging is on the reverse.
I wonder why?</div>

<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in">Ray</div>

<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in">-----
Original Message ----- </div>

<div style='font-color:black'>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in;background:#E4E4E4">From:
<a href="mailto:copperclem@comcast.net" title="copperclem@comcast.net">Clement
V. Schettino</a></div>
</div>

<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in">To:
<a href="mailto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com" title="colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com">colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com</a></div>

<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in">Cc:
<a href="mailto:bobm@cfl.rr.com" title="bobm@cfl.rr.com">bobm@cfl.rr.com</a></div>

<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in">Sent:
Sunday, January 09, 2005 1:14 PM</div>

<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in">Subject:
RE: [Colonial Numismatics] Countermarked New Jersey Copper</div>

<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"></div>

<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in">Hey
Bob,</div>



Thanks
a lot for the info.



I
have a few British G II with this type of countermark, image attached and
sent to you privately, and a few other different types of countermarks
on G II and G III�s as well. I think I posted a few here in the past but
didn�t notice much interest in them? If you would like I�d be happy to
send images to you privately for your files, if you study and track these
things?



BTW,
yes, I�d like to see that Gibb�s image



Clem



-----Original
Message-----
 From:
Bob Merchant [<A HREF="mailto:bobm@cfl.rr.com">mailto:bobm@cfl.rr.com</A>]
 Sent:
Sunday, January 09, 2005 10:59 AM
 To:
colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
 Subject:
Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Countermarked New Jersey Copper




 <tt>Clem,</tt>
<tt>I have seen about 5-10 New
Jersey copper countermarks. They usually</tt>
 <tt>consist of large initials
within a decorated or serrated retangular</tt>
 <tt>depression. Your countermark
is unlike any I have seen before. The</tt>
 <tt>interesting decorative borders
that are carved into the background</tt>
 <tt>around the edges lead me
to believe that the punch maker had an</tt>
 <tt>artistic flair. The style
of the letters is typical of an amateurs</tt>
 <tt>attempt to carve reversed
type into a die punch.</tt>
<tt>The die punch appears to
have been made by the consumer, as opposed</tt>
 <tt>to a craftsman who specialized
in producing maker's marks - such as a</tt>
 <tt>stenciler or logotyper.
In this case, the consumer was probably</tt>
 <tt>either a tool owner (who
stamped their tools and other implements</tt>
 <tt>with this mark), or an artist
who used the mark to stamp their</tt>
 <tt>products, such as ceramic
jugs or possibly some type of crude</tt>
 <tt>metalware.</tt>
<tt>To answer Dave's question
- owner's marks were used to stamp tools</tt>
 <tt>and other valuable items,
to indicate ownership (like cattle are</tt>
 <tt>branded). If a tool "walked
away" from your shop, it would</tt>
 <tt>(hopefully) be returned
since your initials were on it. I have seen</tt>
 <tt>antique tools with the owner's
marks bashed out, which probably</tt>
 <tt>indicates that it was stolen
(this is like wiping out the VIN on a</tt>
 <tt>stolen car).</tt>
<tt>I can provide a scan of the
Gibb's countermark if no one else is able</tt>
 <tt>to.</f

Source URL

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/colonial-coins/info

Date published

2005-01-11

Volume

JCS REPLY Countermarked New Jersey Copper Public Deposited

Relationships

NNP Author