[Colonial Numismatics] JCS REPLY Countermarked New Jersey Copper

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From: Ray Williams <njraywms@optonline.net>
Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] JCS REPLY Countermarked New Jersey Copper
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Clem,
Are these marks on the reverse perfectly aligned to the counterstamp on the obverse?
Ray
----- Original Message -----
From: JCSpilman
To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005 8:58 AM
Subject: [Colonial Numismatics] JCS REPLY Countermarked New Jersey Copper

Clem - -
This is known as collateral damage and is the result of metal flow under high pressure during the time that the pressure exceeds the yield strength of a metal and it reacts as a liquid.

It is actually a sub-set of Isostacy phenomena.

Jim/CNLF

-------------------------------------------

"Clement V. Schettino" wrote:

Hey Ray,

Very good observation! It never dawned on me to think about it. I don't know how this occurred, maybe Jim does, Jim?

Clem

-----Original Message-----
From: Ray Williams [mailto:njraywms@optonline.net]
Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2005 6:32 PM
To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Countermarked New Jersey Copper

Clem,
I find it interesting that some of the serrated edging is on the reverse. I wonder why?
Ray
----- Original Message -----
From: Clement V. Schettino
To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
Cc: bobm@cfl.rr.com
Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2005 1:14 PM
Subject: RE: [Colonial Numismatics] Countermarked New Jersey Copper
Hey Bob,

Thanks a lot for the info.

I have a few British G II with this type of countermark, image attached and sent to you privately, and a few other different types of countermarks on G II and G III's as well. I think I posted a few here in the past but didn't notice much interest in them? If you would like I'd be happy to send images to you privately for your files, if you study and track these things?

BTW, yes, I'd like to see that Gibb's image

Clem

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Merchant [mailto:bobm@cfl.rr.com]
Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2005 10:59 AM
To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Countermarked New Jersey Copper

Clem,

I have seen about 5-10 New Jersey copper countermarks. They usually
consist of large initials within a decorated or serrated retangular
depression. Your countermark is unlike any I have seen before. The
interesting decorative borders that are carved into the background
around the edges lead me to believe that the punch maker had an
artistic flair. The style of the letters is typical of an amateurs
attempt to carve reversed type into a die punch.

The die punch appears to have been made by the consumer, as opposed
to a craftsman who specialized in producing maker's marks - such as a
stenciler or logotyper. In this case, the consumer was probably
either a tool owner (who stamped their tools and other implements
with this mark), or an artist who used the mark to stamp their
products, such as ceramic jugs or possibly some type of crude
metalware.

To answer Dave's question - owner's marks were used to stamp tools
and other valuable items, to indicate ownership (like cattle are
branded). If a tool "walked away" from your shop, it would
(hopefully) be returned since your initials were on it. I have seen
antique tools with the owner's marks bashed out, which probably
indicates that it was stolen (this is like wiping out the VIN on a
stolen car).

I can provide a scan of the Gibb's countermark if no one else is able
to.

Bob M.

--- In colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com, "Clement V. Schettino"
<copperclem@c...> wrote:
> THANKS Chris,
>
>
>
> And yes, I would like to see a scan of the ctsp'd NJ.
>
>
>
> Clem
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Chris Stevens [mailto:noe1oak@y...]
> Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2005 1:49 PM
> To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [Colonial Numismatics] Countermarked New Jersey Copper
>
>
>
> Nice coin Clem....
>
> Just as an FYI to anyone interested in these c/s NJ's,
> there is a nice example with SM in a serrated
> rectangle, plated in the 66' Shulman sale of Gibbs'
> c/s pieces. If there's any interest, I'll try to fire
> up my scanner to post an image.
> It was one of several coins speculated to have a Saint
> Martin c/s. What was speculation in 1966 seems
> completely unlikely today...maybe this was just
> wishful thinking by Gibbs, who interestingly enough
> catalogued the sale himself!
>
> It would be nice to think that if you ever have to
> sell your collection, you could describe/grade &
> provide estimated values on all your own coins! That
> seems more like a FPL than an auction....
>
> -CS
>
>
>
>
> --- "Clement V. Schettino" <copperclem@c...>
> wrote:
>
> > Hey Bob,
> >
> >
> >
> > Attached is the only NJ I own with a countermark on
> > it. I can't tell from my
> > crappy scan if it has the four dots between the
> > letters but will check next
> > time I'm at the bank.
> >
> >
> >
> > Is there anything you can tell me about the
> > countermark?
> >
> >
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Clem
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Bob Merchant [mailto:bobm@c...]
> > Sent: Friday, January 07, 2005 3:12 PM
> > To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [Colonial Numismatics] Countermarked New
> > Jersey Copper
> >
> >
> >
> > Attached are two images of a New Jersey copper that
> > has been countermarked.
> > The images were sent to me by a fellow "coin
> > silverware" collector. I have
> > probably seen 5-10 New Jersey coppers with this type
> > of "large initial"
> > countermark. I explained to my friend that this is
> > probably a blacksmith,
> > craftsman, or owner mark. This type of mark is
> > often seen on antique tools.
> > I have a couple of countermarks in my collection
> > that have the "four dots
> > between the letters", like this one has. It must
> > have been a popular type
> > of early mark decoration.
> >
> > Bob M.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _____
> >
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> >
> >
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> > Date: 1/3/2005
> >
> >
> >
>
> > ATTACHMENT part 2 image/jpeg name=23-P_GFcs.jpg
>
>
>
>
>
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<BODY lang=3DEN-US vLink=3D#0000ff link=3D#0000ff bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>Clem,</DIV>
<DIV> Are these marks on the =
reverse=20
perfectly aligned to the counterstamp on the obverse? </DIV>
<DIV>Ray</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LE=
FT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black">Fro=
m:=20
<A title=3DJCSpilman1@Comcast.NET=20
href=3D"mailto:JCSpilman1@Comcast.NET">JCSpilman</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">To: <A=20
title=3Dcolonial-coins@yahoogroups.com=20
href=3D"mailto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com">colonial-coins@yahoogroups=
.com</A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005 8:=
58=20
AM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">Subject: [Colonial Numismatics] JC=
S REPLY=20
Countermarked New Jersey Copper</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>Clem - -=20
This is known as collateral damage and is the result of metal flow und=
er=20
high pressure during the time that the pressure exceeds the yield strengt=
h of=20
a metal and it reacts as a liquid.=20
It is actually a sub-set of Isostacy phenomena.=20
Jim/CNLF=20
-------------------------------------------=20
"Clement V. Schettino" wrote:=20
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<DIV class=3DSection1>
<DIV class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><FONT=20
face=3DArial>Hey=20
Ray,</DIV>
<SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
<SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><FONT=20
face=3DArial>Very good observatio=
n! It never=20
dawned on me to think about it. I don=92t know how this occurred, maybe=
Jim=20
does, Jim?=20
<SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
<SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><FONT=20
face=3DArial><FONT=20
size=3D-1>Clem=20
<SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
<SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"><FON=
T=20
size=3D-1>-----Original Message----- <SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold"><FONT=20
size=3D-1>From: Ray Williams [<A=20
href=3D"mailto:njraywms@optonline.net">mailto:njraywms@optonline.net</A=
>]=20
 <FONT=20
size=3D-1>Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2005 6:32 PM</=
FONT>=20
 <FONT=20
size=3D-1>To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com</FONT=
>=20
 <FONT=20
size=3D-1>Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Countermark=
ed New=20
Jersey Copper=20
<SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<DIV class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><FONT=
=20
size=3D-1>Clem,</DIV>
<DIV class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><FONT=
=20
size=3D-1> I find it interesting that some of the ser=
rated=20
edging is on the reverse. I wonder why?</DIV=
>
<DIV class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><FONT=
=20
size=3D-1>Ray</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: med=
ium none; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN: 5pt 0in 5pt 3.75p=
t; BORDER-LEFT: black 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium =
none">
<DIV class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><FON=
T=20
size=3D-1>----- Original Message ----- </DI=
V>
<DIV style=3D"font-color: black">
<DIV class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5=
in"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><FON=
T=20
face=3DArial>From:<SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <A=20
title=3Dcopperclem@comcast.net href=3D"mailto:copperclem@comcast.net"=
>Clement=20
V. Schettino</A></DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><FON=
T=20
face=3DArial>To:<SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <A=20
title=3Dcolonial-coins@yahoogroups.com=20
href=3D"mailto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com">colonial-coins@yahoogr=
oups.com</A></DIV>
<DIV class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><FON=
T=20
face=3DArial>Cc:<SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <A title=3Dbobm@cf=
l.rr.com=20
href=3D"mailto:bobm@cfl.rr.com">bobm@cfl.rr.com</A></SP=
AN></DIV>
<DIV class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><FON=
T=20
face=3DArial>Sent:<SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> Sunday, January 09=
, 2005=20
1:14 PM</DIV>
<DIV class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><FON=
T=20
face=3DArial>Subject:<SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> RE: [Colonial=20
Numismatics] Countermarked New Jersey Copper</DI=
V>
<DIV class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></DIV>
<DIV class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><FONT=20
face=3DArial>Hey=20
Bob,</DIV>
<SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><FONT=20
face=3DArial>Thanks a lot for t=
he=20
info.=20
<SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><FONT=20
face=3DArial>I have a few Briti=
sh G II=20
with this type of countermark, image attached and sent to you private=
ly,=20
and a few other different types of countermarks on G II and G III=92s=
as=20
well. I think I posted a few here in the past but didn=92t notice muc=
h=20
interest in them? If you would like I=92d be happy to send images to =
you=20
privately for your files, if you study and track these=20
things?=20
<SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><FONT=20
face=3DArial>BTW, yes, I=92d li=
ke to see=20
that Gibb=92s image=20
<SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><FONT=20
face=3DArial><FONT=20
size=3D-1>Clem=20
<SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"><F=
ONT=20
size=3D-1>-----Original Message----- <SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold"><FONT=20
size=3D-1>From: Bob Merchant [<A=20
href=3D"mailto:bobm@cfl.rr.com">mailto:bobm@cfl.rr.com</A>]</F=
ONT>=20
 <FONT=20
size=3D-1>Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2005 10:59=20
AM <FONT=20
face=3DTahoma>To:=20
colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com <SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold"><FONT=20
size=3D-1>Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Counterma=
rked=20
New Jersey Copper=20
<SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<S=
PAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'"> <TT><FONT=20
face=3D"Courier New">Clem,</TT>=20
<TT>I have seen about 5=
-10 New=20
Jersey copper countermarks. They usually</TT> <TT><=
FONT=20
face=3D"Courier New">consist of large initials within=
a=20
decorated or serrated retangular</TT> <TT><FONT=20
face=3D"Courier New">depression. Your countermark is =
unlike=20
any I have seen before. The</TT> <TT><FONT=20
face=3D"Courier New">interesting decorative borders t=
hat are=20
carved into the background</TT> <TT><FONT=20
face=3D"Courier New">around the edges lead me to beli=
eve that=20
the punch maker had an</TT> <TT><FONT=20
face=3D"Courier New">artistic flair. The style of the=
letters=20
is typical of an amateurs</TT> <TT><FONT=20
face=3D"Couri

Source URL

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Date published

2005-01-11

Volume

[Colonial Numismatics] JCS REPLY Countermarked New Jersey Copper Public Deposited

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