Punch-Linking & the 21st Century

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From johnmenc@optonline.net Thu May 05 06:40:03 2005
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From: "John Lorenzo" <johnmenc@optonline.net>
Subject: [Colonial Numismatics] Re: Punch-Linking & the 21st Century
X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=111282553
X-Yahoo-Profile: colonial_john_c4

Its the isolated non-dielinking nature that disturbs me and the
total lack of EXACT identifiers on why this punch-linking sect of
collectors conider this a Newburgh issue or is it New York City?

--- In colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com, Ray Williams <njraywms@o...>
wrote:
> Is back-dating counterfeits so uncommon? Aren't the much more
modern "Blacksmiths" just crude counterfeits of decades earlier
minted halfpence?
> Ray
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: John Lorenzo
> To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2005 8:23 AM
> Subject: [Colonial Numismatics] Re: Punch-Linking & the 21st
Century
>
>
> Have not looked at it in DETAIL in a couple of years ... I guess
> James Atlee just woke up one morning and decided to create an
> obverse die approximately 40 years prior to his current calender
> year ... OK ... OK ... that's right ... half the population at
the
> time was illiterate. It's the real McCoy ...
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com, "palmers4@e..."
> <palmers4@e...> wrote:
> > John, I doubt I would be able to dislodge the 1-47A from the
> Machin's
> > series, even if I didn't think it belonged. Btw, can you show
me
> something
> > else that even remotely resembles it, in another series?
Doesn't
> look like
> > any British ctft. I have ever seen. David
> >
> > Original Message:
> > -----------------
> > From: John Lorenzo johnmenc@o...
> > Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 01:34:19 -0000
> > To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [Colonial Numismatics] Re: Punch-Linking & the 21st
> Century
> >
> >
> > <html><body>
> >
> >
> > <tt>
> > Agreed. This will take years to prove or dis-prove ... but
> remember 
> > Dave ... a good portion of this Machin's Family is glued
together
> by 
> > punch linking particularly with the Plate I specimens - with
the
> 
> > money backing these un-dielinked varieties - it will take alot
of
> 
> > microstructure analyses <VBG> to possibly dislodge these
> varieities - 
> > there just too much else in numismatics for JPL to try this
in my
> 
> > lifetime ... if the opportunity presents itself ... I will do
what
> I 
> > can ... in the meantime enjoy the backdated punch-linked
> phenomenon 
> > called a GII Machin's tagged by someone from the Breen era. 
> > 
> > --- In colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com, "palmers4@e..." 
> > <palmers4@e...> wrote: 
> > > John, I do not believe something due to some expert, just
> because 
> > I want 
> > > to. I believe what I do based upon my own independant
analysis
> of 
> > the 
> > > COINS, and proof offered, analyzed and accepted, by me.
That
> some 
> > of the 
> > > so-called Machin's, or Tory, or Atlee 1/2d, do not fit,
makes
> 
> > sense to me, 
> > > but NOT due to your broken A punch theory. Theories are
great
> 
> > UNTIL they 
> > > become LAWS without substantiation. Remember that Einstien's
 
> > Theory of 
> > > Relativity is still a theory, as it has yet to be proved. So
> too, 
> > is your 
> > > theory. David 
> > > 
> > > Original Message: 
> > > ----------------- 
> > > From: John Lorenzo johnmenc@o... 
> > > Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 00:31:49 -0000 
> > > To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com 
> > > Subject: [Colonial Numismatics] Re: Punch-Linking & the
21st
> 
> > Century 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > <html><body> 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > <tt> 
> > > Until we can develop sound scientfic analyses we can only
hold
> on 
> > to 
> > > our older attribution techniques such as punch linking
initially
> 
> > 
> > > created by Breen and his school of followers ... perhaps
this
> 
> > Peter 
> > > Northover article involving 18th Century copper (the first
of
> its 
> > 
> > > kind) will allow us to ease the grip a bit we have on punch
 
> > linking 
> > > and shows us a new road to the answers we would all like to
see
> 
> > and 
> > > BELIEVE. 
> > > In the meantime I guess this 1747 GII is staying put due to
some
> 
> > 
> > > nebulous style created by two or three so-called experts. It
> seems 
> > 
> > > the need to belong to a group of individuals with similar
 
> > interests 
> > > can sometimes "cloud" our thoughts on what is valid or
invalid
> or 
> > 
> > > being nothing more than just passed down the line simply
hearsay?
> 
> > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > --- In colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com, "palmers4@e..."
 
> > > <palmers4@e...> wrote: 
> > > > Byron, All I can say is that you have more patience than
I.
> 
> > > JPL's "Broken A 
> > > > Punch" theory, imho, was all wet when he stated it at C4,
then
> 
> > 
> > > again at 
> > > > COAC. He will never admit that it MIGHT be wrong. I guess
 
> > because 
> > > he gave 
> > > > the presentation at COAC, it MUST be right???? Maybe,
maybe
> not. 
> > I 
> > > don't 
> > > > buy it, didn't at the time, and I told him so. I may be
 
> > convinced 
> > > at some 
> > > > future point, but not yet. Not enough PROOF. Supposition,
and
> as 
> > 
> > > you say 
> > > > skewing of the facts to fit a conclusion already made
before
> the 
> > 
> > > facts were 
> > > > in, is NOT good science. But then, I am probably too
stupid to
> 
> > 
> > > understand. 
> > > > It absolutely amazes me that there might have been 10, 20
or
> 
> > even 
> > > 100 die 
> > > > sinkers running around out there in colonial times with an
A
> 
> > punch 
> > > from the 
> > > > same botched matrix, all making coins for different
> operations. 
> > 
> > > Boggles the 
> > > > mind, don't it? Funny, that not even one of these myriad
of
> die 
> > 
> > > sinkers 
> > > > decided to get a NEW A punch, or expect that the supplier
give
> 
> > 
> > > them a new 
> > > > one that was good? Oh well, I just have to wallow in my
 
> > stupidity, 
> > > I guess. 
> > > > David 
> > > > 
> > > > Original Message: 
> > > > ----------------- 
> > > > From: Byron Weston bkweston@v... 
> > > > Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 19:43:30 -0000 
> > > > To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com 
> > > > Subject: [Colonial Numismatics] Re: Punch-Linking & the
21st
> 
> > 
> > > Century 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > <html><body> 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > <tt> 
> > > > REPLIES WITHIN... 
> > > > 
> > > > --- In colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com, "John Lorenzo"
 
> > > <johnmenc@o...> 
> > > > wrote: 
> > > > 
> > > > The current concept advanced by Peter Gaspar 
> > > > > states that die sinkers of the period (THIS IS WHERE
YOU'VE
> 
> > 
> > > > VIOLATED THE SPACE/TIME CONTINUUM, ESSENTIALLY THROWING
 
> > UNRELATED 
> > > 
> > > > FACTS TOGETHER THAT FIT YOUR THEORY OR CONCLUSION.) had
the
> 
> > 
> > > > >availability of identical punches raised from a common
matrix
> 
> > and 
> > > 
> > > > >did not necessarily make their own individual tools.
> Therefore, 
> > 
> > > many 
> > > > >die makers could have had access to the same style of
> defective 
> > 
> > > 
> > > > >punch obtained from a common source. Consequently any
punch,
> 
> > 
> > > > >defective or whole, cannot be used as a marker to
identify
> any 
> > 
> > > 
> > > > >particular mint or craftsman. 
> > > > 
> > > > The writer also shows that the broken "A" letter punch
> 
> > > > > employed in many New Jersey coppers further deteriorated
> with 
> > 
> > > 
> > > > > continued use over time as determined by die emission
 
> > sequence. 
> > > Of 
> > > > > great significance is that the broken "A" seen on
certain
> 
> > 
> > > > > Connecticut coppers is of a different style than that
found
> on 
> > 
> > > New 
> > > > > Jersey coppers and in any case the two broken "A"
punches
> are 
> > 
> > > not 
> > > > > the products of the same defective matrix. There is a
 
> > systematic 
> > > 
> > > > > description of all state coppers which contain broken
> letters. 
> > 
> > > It 
> > > > is 
> > > > > concluded that punch linking of any sort is only of
> secondary 
> > 
> > > value 
> > > > > in attributing coppers to a specific mint or craftsman
and
> 
> > other 
> > > 
> > > > > factors are of more importance in making that 
> > determination. 
> > > > (YOU'VE ONLY REPEATED HODDER'S CONCLUSION BASED ON THE
SAME
> 
> > FALSE 
> > > 
> > > > ASSUMPTIONS.) 
> > > > 
> > > > > Each coinage operation responsible for creating a
specific
> 
> > group 
> > > of 
> > > > > halfpence also created their own letter and numeral
punches.
> 
> > 
> > > > > Punchlink studies are a viable tool in studying
> relationships 
> > 
> > > 
> > > > > between coppers from the Confederation
period. 
> > > > > 
> > > > > However punch link studies can be fooled by striking
> pressure 
> > 
> > > and 
> > > > > the softness of the flan when the coin is struck as the
same
> 
> > 
> > > punch 
> > > > > can take on different shapes and design
elements. 
> > > > (I WONDER WHERE YOU'VE HEARD THIS BEFORE, I'VE BEEN SAYING
IT
> 
> > FOR 
> > > 
> > > > YEARS.) 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > > The idea that an Evasion copper displayed a broken "A"
> letter 
> > 
> > > punch 
> > > > > is a perplexing problem, the problem of many 1776
> counterfeits 
> > 
> > > 
> > > > being 
> > > > > similar to 76A is annoying situation to some? 
> > > collectors,validity 
> > > > of 
> > > > > V.14-84A by one noted collector keeps coming up in 
> > discussions, 
> > > and 
> > > > > also the "conflicted varieities" of the 86's and
> 77A. 
> > > > (I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOU'RE GETTING AT. THE SITUATION
ISN'T
> 
> > NEARLY 
> > > AS 
> > > > ANNOYING AS THE ARGUMENT YOU'RE TRYING TO MAKE LINKING
> EVASIONS 
> > 
> > > WITH 
> > > > ATLEE/MACHIN'S COUNTERFEIT HALFPENCE.) 
> > > > > 
> > > > > THe high probability of the 1787/1788 State Copper
reverse
> sub- 
> > 
> > > 
> > > > > family may have a distinct microstructure than these
other
> 
> > 
> > > > varieites 
> > > > > on Vlack Plate 1 which are hanging on by a THIN THREAD!
> 
> > > > 
> > > > (I EXPLAINED TO YOU IN FOUR PAGES OF REVIEW NOTES, >7
YEARS
> AGO, 
> > 
> > > WHY 
> > > > METALURGICAL TESTING WOULD BE MEANINGLESS AND HOW IT MIGHT
BE
> 
> > 
> > > SCEWED 
> > > > TO GET THE RESULTS THAT YOU WANTED. LET IT GO.) 
> > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Its of my opinion that there may be a distinct
possibility
> 
> > that 
> > > the 
> > > > > microstructure of coins made at Machin's Mills made be
of a
> 
> > 
> > > > > signature quality that will take us forward in the
direction
> 
> > we 
> > > 
> > > > need 
> > > > > to go to unravel this annoying series of counterfeits
 
> > developed 
> > > by 
> > > > > numismatists from the DARK AGES with no scientific
> backgrounds! 
> > 
> > > 
> > > > (THAT MUST BE EVERYONE BUT YOU, RIGHT?) 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Stick around .... 
> > > > 
> > > > (I'VE STUCK AROUND FOR NEARLY A DECADE NOW, JOHN, PUBLISH
OR
> GET 
> > 
> > > OFF 
> > > > THE POT.) 
> > > > > 
> > > > > John Lorenzo 
> > > > 
> > > > (I WILL NO LONGER RESPOND TO POSTS ON THIS SUBJECT IN THIS
 
> > GROUP. 
> > > I 
> > > > CHALLENGE YOU PUBLISH YOUR THEORIES THOUGH SO THAT I MIGHT
 
> > COMMENT 
> > > ON 
> > > > THEM IN A LIKE MANNER. I'M STILL WAITING.) 
> > > > (BYRON) 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > </tt> 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > >  
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > <tt><hr width="500"> 
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> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > -----------------------------------------------------------
----
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URL de origen

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/colonial-coins/info

Fecha de publicación

2005-05-05

Volumen

Punch-Linking & the 21st Century Público Deposited

[Colonial Numismatics] Re

Relaciones

Autor NNP