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Return-Path: <MKRingo@aol.com> X-Sender: MKRingo@aol.com X-Apparently-To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 50527 invoked from network); 26 Feb 2006 02:35:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m32.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 26 Feb 2006 02:35:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d21.mx.aol.com) (205.188.144.207) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 26 Feb 2006 02:35:12 -0000 Received: from MKRingo@aol.com by imo-d21.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v38_r7.3.) id r.d9.37a85080 (15877) for <colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com>; Sat, 25 Feb 2006 21:35:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from FWM-M32 (fwm-m32.webmail.aol.com [64.12.193.234]) by air-id07.mx.aol.com (vx) with ESMTP id MAILINID74-3e05440113d463; Sat, 25 Feb 2006 21:35:00 -0500 Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 21:35:00 -0500 Message-Id: <8C808945FF761EC-84-EFFB@FWM-M32.sysops.aol.com> Received: from 66.79.78.65 by FWM-M32.sysops.aol.com (64.12.193.234) with HTTP (WebMailUI); Sat, 25 Feb 2006 21:35:00 -0500 X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: <BAYC1-PASMTP04EB33BF11BED0B1A8164B9DF10@CEZ.ICE> X-Mailer: AOL WebMail 15106 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="--------MailBlocks_8C808945FF29D38_84_ECD0_FWM-M32.sysops.aol.com" MIME-Version: 1.0 To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.193.234 X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Originating-IP: 205.188.144.207 From: mkringo@aol.com Subject: Williamsburg X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=36492546; y=oP50tNMtRThRE6Eahe-vzn9p_iQq--2c6MJtXY1o6ctAQg X-Yahoo-Profile: mkringo
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Hi all, I just got back from my first trip to Colonial Williamsburg (which was long overdue), and I had a very rewarding visit with Erik in the inner sanctum. We started with a visit to the Geddy Foundry, where sand cast molds of a Pillar dollar (from a cft) had been made a day or two earlier. This was my first participation in an actual counterfeiting operation (at least in this life <g>), and I felt like I was there 200+ years ago. Very cool. The coin attached is a GB 1/2d cast in brass (though not made yesterday), and is strikingly similar to a few pieces in my collection. I will post more photos tonight and tomorrow of the operation and the cft 8Rs made by the "gang of three". Mike -----Original Message----- From: Oliver D. Hoover <oliver.hoover@sympatico.ca> To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 20:59:37 -0500 Subject: RE: [Colonial Numismatics] Re: St. Patrick Inquiry ... John Lupia revisited
Thanks Mike. That?s what I thought. Oliver
From: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com [mailto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of mkringo@aol.com Sent: Saturday, February 25, 2006 5:05 PM To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Re: St. Patrick Inquiry ... John Lupia revisited Oliver and JNL, I've been collecting contemporary cast counteferfeits for about 25 years now, and have probably over 100 examples of early issues, state coins, post-confederation, etc., and I don't recall ever seeing what I would consider any kind of contemporary cast of a St. Pats. Or struck for that matter. Just my 2 bits worth... Mike -----Original Message----- From: Oliver D. Hoover <oliver.hoover@sympatico.ca> To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 16:46:55 -0500 Subject: RE: [Colonial Numismatics] Re: St. Patrick Inquiry ... John Lupia revisited JNL, On the question of counterfeit St. Pats, while I agree that there may be counterfeits involved here, how can we possibly know to what extent or seriously begin to formulate theories as to which should be properly classed as counterfeit until the die study is published or at least made generally available? If there are counterfeits involved one would have to assume that it was a fairly sophisticated gang of forgers, no? You can pick just about the worst example of a St. Pat (I have no idea which ones you suspect as counterfeit), and the quality of engraving will be superior to that of say contemporary or somewhat later counterfeits of tokens and patent and royal coppers. I think you are mistaken in claiming that all coppers are equally easy to counterfeit. While I agree that it isn't particularly difficult to splash on some brass, it does require more effort than simply pressing out a plain copper piece. Likewise, milling the edges requires much more work than coins without such edging. If you accept Danforth's reconstruction of the edging process for St. Pats, it could be quite tricky. Even if you don't subscribe to Danforth's interpretation of the necessary technology and prefer a less advanced approach to the milling you are still looking at a more laborious process than producing coins without milled edges. As for contemporary cast counterfeits of St. Pats, how many of these are actually out there? Can you cite me an example? I haven't knowingly seen one. Oliver P.S. I apologize for my failure to employ gratuitous alphabetization above. Still, in the interest of continuity... QRSTUVWXYZ. -----Original Message----- From: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com [mailto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John Lupia Sent: Saturday, February 25, 2006 11:44 AM To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Re: St. Patrick Inquiry ... John Lupia revisited --- Will Nipper <wnippe@acxiom.com> wrote: > John, > > >> > Help me understand what it is that you think > I'm > > > pusuing, after I wrote that I wasn't pursuing > anything. > > No. 1 -- Good. > Oh. Now I understand. Thanks for the explanation. I had construed your ermine connection with Leake. Apparently Stan interpreted it to mean the robe and the line inquiry died out as it should since there is no other possible connection. It was you who did suggest ermine, no? So if you did not mean what Leake suggested did you really mean to refer to the robe? If you meant what Leake suggested then Stan offered another and now what you originally meant is ambiguos and you can now claim what you wish. So the whole line of inquiry is better off left ended. > > > > On your other point, I don't think counterfeits > can > > > be ruled out as the source of SOME St. Pat > farthing varieties. > No. 2 -- Good. > SOME is the operative word. I believe counterfeiting > may have been a > factor, but probably not the dominant factor in > there being so many > varieties. SOME is a Particular Affirmative or I-Propsition in logic. The I being one of four classes consisting of A, E, I, O where A=all are, E=none are, I=some are, O=some are not. When I-Propsitions are true A-Propositions and O-Propositions are undetermined, and E-Propositions are false. Consequentaly, by the rules of formal logic if the I-Proposition is true we cannot know to what extent , or, the magnitude since ALL may be a possibility as well as SOME ARE NOT. You appear to imply the the extent was very small by the manner in which you express yourself and I realize I may be misreading you. > > > Still, it doesn't quite make sense that anyone > would choose to > > > counterfeit the toughest-to-make base metal > issue when lesser > ones could be replicated more easily. > > No. 3 -- Why do you think that? > Among many other reasons, it would simply cost more, > be harder to do > and provide no incremental benefit to the > counterfeitor except as I > say in 4 & 5 below. Then you appear to be convinced that to cft a SP was excessively difficult to do. This I am not convinced about and disagree. I think SPs like any other coin was of equal ease or difficulty to replicate by cfters. > > > >Of course one could say that doing so might be > convincing since > the lesser pieces could be made by anyone. > > No. 4 -- Explain? > Credibility. One would likely assume that a coin > with complex > devices and legends and anti-counterfeiting devices > would more > likely be the product of a legitimate mint than say > a flattened lump > with a primitive stamp, even if the first is a > counterfeit and the > second is genuine. First of all you are straying from what is in fact to abstract possibilities that are not. We do know the SPs and there is nothing about them so complex or embedded with anti-cfting devices that would make replication difficult, costly or anything else that would prevent them from being cfted. Look at them. I have heard people on this list repeat time and time over how these coins were of such high quality, etc. This is simply not so. They are very crude, ineptly die sunk usually, with improperly placed dripped splashers from haste and other aspects that show the quality was very low. It seems reasonable that any counterfeiter out there could cast them or from a coin make a mould and replicate a die to screw press their own. So cast copies and pressed copies do not seem to be too difficult and convenient for a forger who usually made a small fortune cheating the public and the treasury from mass produced small change. > > And, the posiibility of 'retaking' would make St. > Pats > > > better targets than the 'unlycensed tradesmans' > tokens. > > No. 5 -- Merchant Tokens were redeemed by the > merchant. Whom do > you think redeemed the St. Pats? > The big problem with the merchant tokens was that > merchants wouldn't > redeem the tokens of others and could, at their > whim, refuse to > redeem even their own. They did so at great cost to > the poor. > Armstrong's lack of a provision to 'retake' his own > farthings was a > reason for their failure. The situation was far more complex than that about the crisis of farthings, Will. I began this journey writing a history of small change. I first began to compile data on US half cents since it did not matter where I began but the master-plan is to produce a comprehensive study from the 17th century to the 19th century. So now I find myself skipping back to the 17th century here with the SPs. The whole story of modern small change is very complicated and fascinating. Since I began the study of SPs I finally took a look at Maris after all these years and now interested in the NJ coppers I think I would like to create a modern revised version of Maris in 2 volumes with one on SPs and a second on NJ Coppers. Then I will return to the half cents and other colonials that made up small change in the US completing my study. Ford, at least in his 1664 > proposal, > offered a plan to retake his tokens through agents. This was always a requirement for any licenced minter coining for the government and was not unique to Ford. > If you were > counterfeiting, would you make a piece that quickly > might become > devalued or one that carried the promise of > redemption and, hence, a > reason for acceptance? There is no point in spitting in the wind. You are once again not addressing something real but unreal. > > >Still, it all seems as if it is a lot of effort, > materials and > technology when a little would do, in a country > starved for coinage. > > No. 6 -- This is the same as Nos. 3 & 4 above. > No, its a summary thought. IF we're talking A-K-Q, > counterfeiting > might be Q, J or 10. IMHO. Obfuscation does not help. My original inquiry was aimed at finding out why you thought counterfeiting SPs was so very hard, technologically difficult, costly, etc., but you offer nothing but rhetoric. Now you offer obfuscation with an artificial alphabet soup that spells nothing. > > > > > > I also believe that Ford's contemporaries > thought > > > his tokens, St. Pats or not, to be invulnerable > BECAUSE they > were so varied. We know that to be wrong-headed, as > proven by Robert > > > Scot and John Reich. > > No. 7 -- Explain? > First part: Read Pepys, Wood, etc. How does this blank suggestion help? Where in Mr. Peeps is anything that sheds light on what you are talking about? Which Wood do you mean? the coiner of the Irish money that is written up in the Drapier letters? Or do you mean another Wood? And what does this Wood have to say that sheds light on what you are talking about? I could not help but notice you used two names but failed to mention Scot in your original statement. You seem to throw things out at people as a shield of obfuscation, Will. This is not helpful in any discussion. > Second part: U.S. bust half dollars had many > variatins and, thus, > were extensively counterfeited before John Reich > enhanced the > hubbing process to produce uniform coins. By > Gobrecht's time, a > piece that was only slightly variant stood out. Now > we notice an > extra leaf on a Wisconsin quarter. You have good evidence here to support the position that Ford did not have a better idea and would have been rejected if his only premise was to make a complete varied coinage that nobody could tell one from another opening wide Pandora/s box to all counterfeiters so that even the coiner himself would not know which were his from those that were not. The 17th century English did not buy into Fords reasoning as you claim. Where is the proof of the fact that they did? I mean besides none? > > > >But these 17th century guys don't seem to have > figured it out. > > No. 8 -- Or, it was not true to begin with. > See #7. > If they didn't believe it, why did they mention it? You need to take another look at who they are. This sort of making proposals and petitions with a myriad of claims false and otherwise went on all the time. Each new petitioner had the best idea that could not be counterfeited, etc.,, there were dozens of these petitioners all the time. Being a relative of Lady Jane Gray with political pull may have aided in getting a minor commission to a dying man who probably would not survive the trip to the mint. > > > > > > After all, the final triumph of English milling > over the > > > hammer had come only in 1662. > > No. 9 -- Really! And you know this to be a > supportable > > and defensible fact based on what evidence? > Plato said that we can know nothing, but only have > opinions. Please cite the text. Having > said that, I believe you will find that post-1662 > English hammered > coinage and unicorn poop exist in ROUGHLY similar > quantities. I was not asking about hammered coins, but I see how you could have taken one of the two subjects in your bifurcated proposition. I mean milled. And what I meant is how do you knoow milled coins began in 1662? Best regards, John John N. Lupia, III Beachwood, New Jersey 08722 USA; Beirut, Lebanon Fax: (732) 349-3910 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Roman-Catholic-News/ God Bless America __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links
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<HTML><BODY><DIV style='font-family: "Verdana"; font-size: 10pt;'><DIV> <DIV>Hi all,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I just got back from my first trip to Colonial Williamsburg (which was long overdue), and I had a very rewarding visit with Erik in the inner sanctum. We started with a visit to the Geddy Foundry, where sand cast molds of a Pillar dollar (from a cft) had been made a day or two earlier. This was my first participation in an actual counterfeiting operation (at least in this life <g>), and I felt like I was there 200+ years ago. Very cool. The coin attached is a GB 1/2d cast in brass (though not made yesterday), and is strikingly similar to a few pieces in my collection. I will post more photos tonight and tomorrow of the operation and the cft 8Rs made by the "gang of three".</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Mike</DIV> <BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: Oliver D. Hoover <oliver.hoover@sympatico.ca><BR>To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com<BR>Sent: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 20:59:37 -0500<BR>Subject: RE: [Colonial Numismatics] Re: St. Patrick Inquiry ... John Lupia revisited<BR><BR> <STYLE> .AOLPlainTextBody { margin: 0px; font-family: Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, Sans-Serif; font-size: 12px; color: #000; background-color: #fff; }
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<DIV class=Section1> <DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Thanks Mike. That?s what I thought.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Oliver<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <HR tabIndex=-1 align=center width="100%" SIZE=2> </SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"> <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:PersonName w:st="on">colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com</st1:PersonName> [mailto:<st1:PersonName w:st="on">colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com</st1:PersonName>] <B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>mkringo@aol.com<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Saturday, February 25, 2006 5:05 PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> <st1:PersonName w:st="on">colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com</st1:PersonName><BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Re: St. Patrick Inquiry ... John Lupia revisited</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></DIV></DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV> <DIV> <DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Verdana size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Oliver and JNL,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV> <DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Verdana size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV> <DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Verdana size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">I've been collecting contemporary cast counteferfeits for about 25 years now, and have probably over 100 examples of early issues, state coins, post-confederation, etc., and I don't recall ever seeing what I would consider any kind of contemporary cast of a S
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