[Colonial Numismatics] wound down

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Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 21:51:53 -0500
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From: James Spilman <CNLF@Comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] wound down
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Ray --

A Xerox copy for the C4 Library would be great!
This is one of WHB's hand annotated manuscripts and it will take much
study to sort it all out.

Jim/CNLF

===================================================
On Oct 13, 2006, at 6:50 PM, Ray Williams wrote:

> Jim,
> I remembered seeing that auction lot description and wishing it
> was in my price range. It wasn't! I'll get the address of the
> owner and see if I could borrow it, or see if he would be willing
> to look for us... Must get back to writing a "President's Message"
> as I promised Syd I would have it for him by this weekend for the
> next C4 Newsletter.
> Ray
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: JCSpilman/iMAC
> To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 5:47 PM
> Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] wound down
>
> Ray -- et al
> Here is a snippet from the FORD/Kolbe catalog describing the NJ ms.
> that I was discussing. See attachment.
>
> Jim/CNLF
>
> ================================
>
> James Spilman wrote:
>> Ray -- There was one "Breen NJ Manuscript" sold in the Ford/Kolbe
>> sale and I have no idea who purchased it. This was the one that
>> upset Hodder so much when I wrote to GK and suggested that this
>> was the ms. that JJF "stole" (Breen's words) from Breen.
>> There is a long story there! A similar comment from Breen
>> appears in an early CNL. This may have been a later edition from
>> the one that C4 reproduced. I do not know. Someday we may be
>> able to locate it and determine what he (Breen) actually wrote.
>> Those "sealed" Breen letters (stored by Frank at ANS) to the late
>> Ray Williamson of Lynchberg VA may offer more clues. It is just
>> another document for which to keep one's eyes open! I know that
>> Breen made many trips to Princeton to search the archives. GK does
>> not tell folk who purchases what from him -- a practice with
>> which I fully agree -- so I have never bothered to ask him.
>> George may see this comment and advise us! Jim/CNLF
>> ============================================ On Oct 13, 2006, at
>> 3:29 PM, Ray Williams wrote:
>>> Hi Jim, I wonder why Walter Breen considered the 58-n a
>>> questionable variety... I wish he would have written something
>>> about it. Also, it would be awesome to find something in the NJ
>>> State archives that would show that the State had actually made
>>> Walter Mould remove his initials from the dies. To this point,
>>> the removal was thought to have been required by the state, why
>>> else remove them. It would be nice to have proof. It is known
>>> who owns Breen's unpublished manuscript (the original) and maybe
>>> it might have info that is not in any of the copies that exist in
>>> the hobby. Maybe I can pursue this further.Ray
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: JCSpilman/iMAC
>>> To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
>>> Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 2:03 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] wound down
>>>
>>> Ray - et al
>>> I recall a telephone discussion that I had with Walter Breen
>>> pre-1970 regarding the N.J. issues in general.
>>>
>>> His opinion at that time was that 56-n, 57-n and 58-n (which he
>>> considered a questionable variety) were all obviously from the
>>> same hand and from the same mint (he named "X" at that time) and
>>> was a mint that had no source of planchet stock, so it used
>>> anything it could obtain. They did not have knowledge of
>>> annealing so all their strikes were made on work hardened
>>> planchets, only a few of which resulted in a nice strike without
>>> signs of the undertype.
>>>
>>> He also mentioned the existence of the WM specimens which the NJ
>>> legislature had ordered (the WM initials) removed from the
>>> specimens.
>>>
>>> All of this is documented -- he told me -- in "my NJ manuscript
>>> which I can send you as soon as it returns from JJF". He never
>>> received the ms. back from JJF and this data is NOT recorded in
>>> any of the extant "Breen NJ unpublished manuscripts" that I know
>>> about. It may still be floating around out there, unrecognized
>>> as different (later edition) from the others.
>>>
>>> This trivia must remain as undocumented trivia until the ms. that
>>> Walter had in mind puts in an appearance, someday.
>>>
>>> Jim/CNLF
>>>
>>> ========================
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Byron Weston wrote:
>>>> --- In colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com, Ray Williams <njraywms@...>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > Hi Byron,
>>>> > Nice coin! I greatly enjoy the Camel Head NJ's for their
>>>> abundance of different undertypes. There is disagreement
>>>> between me
>>>> and some fellow NJ collectors as to where the Camel Heads were
>>>> struck
>>>> and by who (whom?). I'll keep an open mind and hope that
>>>> someday some
>>>> proof unearths itself. In all the years of writing the NJ
>>>> Census in
>>>> Penny Wise, the issue that I worked on the Camel Heads was the
>>>> most fun
>>>> by far!!! There was one person that only owned Camel heads (no
>>>> other
>>>> variety) and had 30 of them, if I remember right. But nice find
>>>> and I
>>>> hope to see it in the coper the next time we meet.
>>>> > Ray
>>>> >
>>>> Thanks, Ray, I'll try to remember to bring it along the next time I
>>>> know we'll be meeting.
>>>> The only other Camel Head I've handled was a 57-n I attributed
>>>> for one
>>>> of my dealer friends who consigned it to a C4 auction several years
>>>> ago - unfortunately it was struck over one of them CT coppers,
>>>> darn!
>>>> <s>
>>>> I did have a "date set" of NJs years ago but currently have only
>>>> one
>>>> other NJ. I bought this one more for the undertype than as a
>>>> Camel Head
>>>> type though.
>>>> Byron
>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>

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<HTML><BODY style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -khtml-nbsp-mode: space; -khtml=
-line-break: after-white-space; ">Ray --<DIV> </DIV><DIV>A Xerox copy for the C4 Library would be great!=A0 =A0</=
DIV><DIV>This is one of WHB's hand annotated manuscripts and it will take m=
uch study to sort it all out.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Jim/CNLF</DIV><DIV> </DI=
V><DIV>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D <DIV><DIV>On Oct 13, 2006, at 6:50 PM, Ray Williams wrote:<=
/DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><SPA=
N class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; border-spa=
cing: 0px 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px=
; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spa=
cing: normal; line-height: normal; text-align: auto; -khtml-text-decoration=
s-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -apple-text-size-adjust: auto; text-tr=
ansform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0p=
x; "><DIV>Jim,</DIV><DI=
V>=A0=A0=A0 I remembered seeing that =
auction lot description and wishing it was in my price range.=A0 It wasn't!=
=A0 I'll get the address of the owner and see if I could borrow it, or see =
if he would be willing to look for us...=A0 Must get back to writing a "Pre=
sident's Message" as I promised Syd I would have it for him by this weekend=
for the next C4 Newsletter.</DIV><DIV>Ray</DIV><DIV>=A0</DIV><BLOCKQUOTE dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDI=
NG-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGH=
T: 0px"><DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial; font-family: arial; font-size: 13.3=
333px; ">----- Original Message -----</DIV><DIV style=3D"=
BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black; font-family: aria=
l; font-size: 13.3333px; ">From:<S=
PAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: arial; font-size: 13.3=
333px; "> <A title=3D"CNLF@Comcast.net" href=3D"mailto:CNLF@Comcast.=
net">JCSpilman/iMAC</A></DIV><DIV style=3D"=
FONT: 10pt arial; font-family: arial; font-size: 13.3333px; ">To: <A title=3D"colonial-co=
ins@yahoogroups.com" href=3D"mailto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com">co=
lonial-coins@yahoogroups.com</A></DIV><DIV style=
=3D"FONT: 10pt arial; font-family: arial; font-size: 13.3333px; ">Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 =
5:47 PM</DIV><DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial; font-family: arial; fon=
t-size: 13.3333px; ">Subject:<SPAN=
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: arial; font-size: 13.3333=
px; "> Re: [Colonial Numismatics] wound down</DIV><DIV> </DIV>Ray=
--=A0 et alHere is a snippet from the FORD/Kolbe catalog describing the=
NJ ms. that I was discussing.=A0 See attachment.Jim/CNLF=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DJames Spilman wrote:<BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"CITE">=
=A0Ray -=
-=A0There was one "Breen NJ Manuscript" sold in the Ford/Kolbe sale and I h=
ave no idea=A0 who purchased it.=A0 =A0This was the one that upset Hodder s=
o much=A0 when I wrote to GK and suggested that this was the ms.=A0 that=A0=
JJF=A0 "stole"=A0 (Breen's words) from Breen.=A0 There is a long story the=
re!=A0=A0=A0A similar comment from Breen appears in an early CNL.=A0 This m=
ay=A0 have been a later edition from the one that C4 reproduced.=A0 I do no=
t know.=A0 Someday we may be able to locate it and determine what he (Breen=
) actually wrote.=A0 Those "sealed" Breen letters (stored by Frank at ANS) =
to the late Ray Williamson of Lynchberg VA may offer more clues.=A0It is ju=
st another document for which to keep one's eyes open!=A0 I know that Breen=
made many trips to Princeton to search the archives.=A0GK does not tell fo=
lk who purchases what from him --=A0 a practice with which I fully agree --=
so I have never bothered to ask him.=A0 George may see this comment and ad=
vise us!=A0Jim/CNLF=A0=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=A0=A0On Oct 13, 2006, at 3:29 PM, Ray Williams wrote:<BLOCKQU=
OTE type=3D"cite">Hi Jim,=A0=A0=A0 I wonder why Walter Breen conside=
red the 58-n a questionable variety...=A0 I wish he would have written some=
thing about it.=A0 Also, it would be awesome to find something in the NJ St=
ate archives that would show that the State had actually made Walter Mould =
remove his initials from the dies.=A0 To this point, the removal was though=
t to have been required by the state, why else remove them.=A0 It would be =
nice to have proof.=A0 It is known who owns Breen's unpublished manuscript =
(the original) and maybe it might have info that is not in any of the copie=
s that exist in the hobby.=A0 Maybe=A0I can pursue this further.</FO=
NT>Ray=A0=A0<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-R=
IGHT: 0px; color: rgb(0, 99, 18); "><DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial; color: =
rgb(0, 99, 18); font-family: arial; font-size: 13.3333px; ">----- Original Message -----</DIV><DIV style=3D"B=
ACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black; color: rgb(0, 99, =
18); font-family: arial; font-size: 13.3333px; "><SP=
AN class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 99, 18); font-family: =
arial; font-size: 13.3333px; font-weight: bold; ">From: <A title=3D"CNLF@Comcast.net" href=3D"mail=
to:CNLF@Comcast.net">JCSpilman/iMAC</A></DIV><DIV style=3D"FONT=
: 10pt arial; color: rgb(0, 99, 18); font-family: arial; font-size: 13.3333=
px; ">To: <A title=3D"=
colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com" href=3D"mailto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.c=
om">colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com</A></DIV><DIV style=3D"FONT:=
10pt arial; color: rgb(0, 99, 18); font-family: arial; font-size: 13.3333p=
x; ">Sent: Friday, October 13=
, 2006 2:03 PM</DIV><DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial; color: rgb(0, 99=
, 18); font-family: arial; font-size: 13.3333px; "><=
SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 99, 18); font-family=
: arial; font-size: 13.3333px; font-weight: bold; ">Subject:<SPA=
N class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 99, 18); font-family: a=
rial; font-size: 13.3333px; "> Re: [Colonial Numismatics] wound down=
</DIV>=
=A0<DIV id=3D"ygrp-text">Ray - et alI re=
call a telephone discussion that I had with Walter Breen pre-1970 regarding=
the N.J. issues in general.His opi=
nion at that time was that 56-n, 57-n and 58-n (which he considered a quest=
ionable variety) were all obviously from the same hand and from the same mi=
nt (he named "X" at that time) and was a mint that had no source of planche=
t stock, so it used anything it could obtain.=A0 They did not have knowledg=
e of annealing so all their strikes were made on work hardened planchets,=
only a few of which resulted in a nice strike without signs of the underty=
pe.He also mentioned the existence =
of the WM specimens which the NJ legislature=A0 had ordered (the WM initial=
s) removed from the specimens.All o=
f this is documented -- he told me --=A0 in "my NJ manuscript which I can s=
end you as soon as it returns from JJF".=A0 He never received the ms. back =
from JJF and this data is NOT recorded in any of the extant "Breen NJ unpub=
lished manuscripts"=A0 that I know about.=A0 It may still be floating aroun=
d out there, unrecognized as different (later edition) from the others.</SP=
AN>This trivia must remain as undocumented=
trivia until the ms. that Walter had in mind puts in an appearance, someda=
y.Jim/CNLF=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =A0 =A0=A0B=
yron Weston wrote:<BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"CITE">--- In colonial-coins@=
yahoogroups.com, Ray Williams <njraywms@...> wrote: > > Hi Byron, </SP=
AN> >=A0=A0=A0=A0 Nice coin!=A0 I greatly enj=
oy the Camel Head NJ's for their abundan=
ce of different undertypes.=A0 There is disagreement between me and some fellow NJ collectors as to where the Camel=
Heads were struck and by who (whom?).=
=A0 I'll keep an open mind and hope that someday some proof unearths itself.=A0 In all the years of writing the NJ =
Census in Penny Wise, the issue that I w=
orked on the Camel Heads was the most fun by far!!!=A0 There was one person that only owned Camel heads (no other <=
/SPAN> variety) and had 30 of them, if I remembe=
r right.=A0 But nice find and I hope to =
see it in the coper the next time we meet. > Ray > Thanks, Ray, I'll try to remember to bring it along the next ti=
me I know we'll be meeting. <SPAN cla

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