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From: "Oliver D. Hoover" <oliver.hoover@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Wood 33 = English Evasion
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It should be BRITI.
Oliver
On 21-Jan-08, at 1:24 PM, Dan Burleson wrote:
> Why is it B R T I T and not B R I T I.? I have one that seems to=20=20
> show a triangle right and half way up of the fourth letter and=20=20
> appears to be part of a T. I would think the I's would have bases.
>
> Dan
>
> John Lorenzo wrote:
>>
>> Look first for the presence of die polishing lines on the tops of
>> the letters ... then proceed to your interpretation of BRITAIN. If
>> the die polishing lines are not present with a loop it may either be
>> another die (i.e., we would expect more than one die marriage
>> marriage here - particularly after the situation when Ringo try to
>> sell me 150 W33 examples in one transaction in the 90's which
>> eventaully went to a Maine Collector) or the grade may not be high
>> enough on the correct die to see the faint images to complete the
>> word BRTIT. Keep digging ... on the most common R1 Evasion. In may
>> be that this is the only R1 Evasion known ... right Morris?
>>
>> --- In colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com, "j.howes" <j.howes@...> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > I don't see any indication of an R. So, I would like to see
>> somone post an
>> > image that shows an early die state.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "Oliver D. Hoover" <oliver.hoover@...>
>> > To: <colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com>
>> > Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 11:36 AM
>> > Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Wood 33 =3D English Evasion
>> >
>> >
>> > You can make out the slight tail of the R on my example too.
>> >
>> > Oliver
>> >
>> > On 21-Jan-08, at 11:34 AM, B B wrote:
>> >
>> > > Here's an image from the Blacksmiths site folder.
>> > >
>> > > BB
>> > > --- B B <rlbcomuser@...> wrote:
>> > >
>> > >> All;
>> > >>
>> > >> Of the five pieces I have lying around here at home
>> > >> two have remnants of the foot or tail on the R.
>> > >> They
>> > >> are not really high grade examples so I would assume
>> > >> they are early die states. The legend definately
>> > >> reads BRTIT., So its undoubtably evasive. The
>> > >> mystery
>> > >> is the predominance of species in North America.
>> > >> This is most unusual for an evasion.
>> > >>
>> > >> As for the rocks, pillows or clowds, everything on
>> > >> both central devices is kind of rounded and
>> > >> indistinct
>> > >> and I just assumed that was the engravers style.
>> > >> Makes for a somewaht pleasing although Yogi Berra
>> > >> looking Geoge III bust.
>> > >>
>> > >> I don't have images of these early ststes at this
>> > >> point, but could get them tomorrow if there is an
>> > >> interest.
>> > >>
>> > >> Bob
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> --- "Oliver D. Hoover" <oliver.hoover@...>
>> > >> wrote:
>> > >>
>> > >>> It makes me think of a really lame attempt to
>> > >>> imitate the rocks on
>> > >>> the 1722 Hibernia pattern. Of course, I have no
>> > >> idea
>> > >>> why someone
>> > >>> might do such a thing.
>> > >>>
>> > >>> Oliver
>> > >>>
>> > >>> On 21-Jan-08, at 9:33 AM, j.howes wrote:
>> > >>>
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> Clem,
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> OK I'll bite. I attached an image of my Wood
>> > >> 33.
>> > >>> Its a pretty
>> > >>>> high grade also. In fact I am interested in
>> > >>> seeing any images of
>> > >>>> better ones. Also can you post the image you
>> > >>> mention that shows
>> > >>>> the die may have been lapped. I have never seen
>> > >>> any other die
>> > >>>> states but I can't say that I have looked at
>> > >> more
>> > >>> than a few of these.
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> I think the "pile of ambergris" as you pungently
>> > >>> put it looks like
>> > >>>> a pile of rocks to me or maybe a bag of clouds
>> > >> :-)
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> ----- Original Message -----
>> > >>>> From: Clement V. Schettino
>> > >>>> To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
>> > >>>> Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 8:46 AM
>> > >>>> Subject: RE: [Colonial Numismatics] Wood 33 =3D
>> > >>> English Evasion
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> Hey Jack,
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> Oh well, I guess if I want someone to "talk" to
>> > >>> I'll have to "talk"
>> > >>>> about this ;-)
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> I agree that it does not look like an `R' on
>> > >> your
>> > >>> piece Jack or my
>> > >>>> piece (attached). And mine also sports that
>> > >> little
>> > >>> perpendicular
>> > >>>> from the upright that yours shows intimating a
>> > >>> `P'.
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> But I do have an image in my files which pretty
>> > >>> clearly shows at
>> > >>>> one time, probably before the die was polished
>> > >> or
>> > >>> lapped that it
>> > >>>> was in fact an `R'.
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> My question is=85 what's that pile of ambergris on
>> > >>> Britannia's back
>> > >>>> is supposed to represent?
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> Clem
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> From: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
>> > >>> [mailto:colonial-
>> > >>>> coins@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of j.howes
>> > >>>> Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 9:34 AM
>> > >>>> To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
>> > >>>> Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Wood 33 =3D
>> > >>> English Evasion
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> Morris,
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> See the attached closeup of the reverse legend.
>> > >> I
>> > >>> don't think the
>> > >>>> 2nd letter is a either a T or an I. Looks more
>> > >>> like an F or maybe
>> > >>>> a P to me. Definitely not an R.
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> ----- Original Message -----
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> From: Morris Hankins
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2008 2:20 PM
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Wood 33 =3D
>> > >>> English Evasion
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> Phil, for some time now I have been putting off
>> > >>> writing a paper on
>> > >>>> this particular coin. Somehow or another, I was
>> > >>> under the
>> > >>>> impression that Oliver Hoover was submitting a
>> > >>> paper to CNL on this.
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> I have examined numerous specimens on this coin
>> > >>> including two from
>> > >>>> JPL, one from ODH, and several from others as
>> > >> well
>> > >>> as my own.
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> Based on my observations of these, I assigned
>> > >>> Cobwright numbers G.
>> > >>>> 0899./B.0099 to the coin with the obverse being
>> > >>> Gloriuvs III Vis
>> > >>>> and the reverse being Btiti. Bitit is totally
>> > >>> wrong in my opinion;
>> > >>>> specifically when observing the "I" on the
>> > >>> obverse. This "I"
>> > >>>> matches the bases of the third and fifth letters
>> > >>> on the reverse;
>> > >>>> thus Btiti.
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> The misspellings in the legends are simply
>> > >> errors
>> > >>> due to someone
>> > >>>> not knowing how to spell, which was quite common
>> > >>> in those times.
>> > >>>> Or he was drunk or hung-over. The Btiti of the
>> > >>> reverse probably
>> > >>>> started out to be BRITISH which was 'royally'
>> > >>> bollixed.
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> Two examples showed the possibility of the 'L'
>> > >> in
>> > >>> Gloriuvs possibly
>> > >>>> being an 'E', thus possibly being Georiuvs. One
>> > >>> of these that
>> > >>>> showed this was JPL's example which is the
>> > >> highest
>> > >>> graded 'Wood 33'
>> > >>>> known. The ones described as being BRTIT on the
>> > >>> reverse that I
>> > >>>> have seen, appear to be a metal flow problem and
>> > >>> nothing else.
>> > >>>> Trying to squeeze an 'R' in simply doesn't work.
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> In summation, these are English Evasions
>> > >> imported
>> > >>> into the Canada
>> > >>>> and the U.S. and were well circulated in the
>> > >>> Northeast states.
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>
>> > >>
>> > > =3D=3D=3D message truncated =3D=3D=3D
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> __________________________________________________________
>> _
>> > > ______________
>> > > Be a better friend, newshound, and
>> > > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://
>> > > mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=3DAhu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > <b95c.jpg>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Yahoo! Groups Links
>> >
>>
>=20
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<html><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webk=
it-line-break: after-white-space; ">
It should be BRITI.<div><br class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div>O=
liver<br><div><div>On 21-Jan-08, at 1:24 PM, Dan Burleson wrote:</div><br c=
lass=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type=3D"cite"> Why is it B =
R T I T and not B R I T I.? I have one that seems to show a triangle right =
and half way up of the fourth letter and appears to be part of a T. I would=
think the I's would have bases.<br> <br> Dan<br> <br> John Lorenzo wrote: =
<blockquote cite=3D"mid:fn2kgm+h9fo@eGroups.com" type=3D"cite"> <div id=3D=
"ygrp-text"><p>Look first for the presence of die polishing lines on the to=
ps of <br> the letters ... then proceed to your interpretation of BRITAIN. =
If <br> the die polishing lines are not present with a loop it may either b=
e <br> another die (i.e., we would expect more than one die marriage <br> m=
arriage here - particularly after the situation when Ringo try to <br> sell=
me 150 W33 examples in one transaction in the 90's which <br> eventaully w=
ent to a Maine Collector) or the grade may not be high <br> enough on the c=
orrect die to see the faint images to complete the <br> word BRTIT. Keep di=
gging ... on the most common R1 Evasion. In may <br> be that this is the on=
ly R1 Evasion known ... right Morris? <br> <br> --- In <a moz-do-not-send=
=3D"true" href=3D"mailto:colonial-coins%40yahoogroups.com">colonial-coins@<=
wbr>yahoogroups.<wbr>com</a>, "j.howes" <j.howes@...<wbr>> wrote:<br>=
><br> > <br> > I don't see any indication of an R. So, I would li=
ke to see <br> somone post an <br> > image that shows an early die state=
.<br> > <br> > <br> > <br> > ----- Original Message ----- <br> =
> From: "Oliver D. Hoover" <oliver.hoover@<wbr>...><br> > To: &=
lt;<a moz-do-not-send=3D"true" href=3D"mailto:colonial-coins%40yahoogroups.=
com">colonial-coins@<wbr>yahoogroups.<wbr>com</a>><br> > Sent: Monday=
, January 21, 2008 11:36 AM<br> > Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Wo=
od 33 =3D English Evasion<br> > <br> > <br> > You can make out the=
slight tail of the R on my example too.<br> > <br> > Oliver<br> >=
<br> > On 21-Jan-08, at 11:34 AM, B B wrote:<br> > <br> > > He=
re's an image from the Blacksmiths site folder.<br> > ><br> > >=
BB<br> > > --- B B <rlbcomuser@<wbr>...> wrote:<br> > ><=
br> > >> All;<br> > >><br> > >> Of the five piec=
es I have lying around here at home<br> > >> two have remnants of =
the foot or tail on the R.<br> > >> They<br> > >> are not=
really high grade examples so I would assume<br> > >> they are ea=
rly die states. The legend definately<br> > >> reads BRTIT., So it=
s undoubtably evasive. The<br> > >> mystery<br> > >> is t=
he predominance of species in North America.<br> > >> This is most=
unusual for an evasion.<br> > >><br> > >> As for the roc=
ks, pillows or clowds, everything on<br> > >> both central devices=
is kind of rounded and<br> > >> indistinct<br> > >> and =
I just assumed that was the engravers style.<br> > >> Makes for a =
somewaht pleasing although Yogi Berra<br> > >> looking Geoge III b=
ust.<br> > >><br> > >> I don't have images of these early=
ststes at this<br> > >> point, but could get them tomorrow if the=
re is an<br> > >> interest.<br> > >><br> > >> Bo=
b<br> > >><br> > >><br> > >> --- "Oliver D. Hoov=
er" <oliver.hoover@<wbr>...><br> > >> wrote:<br> > >&g=
t;<br> > >>> It makes me think of a really lame attempt to<br> =
> >>> imitate the rocks on<br> > >>> the 1722 Hiber=
nia pattern. Of course, I have no<br> > >> idea<br> > >>&=
gt; why someone<br> > >>> might do such a thing.<br> > >&=
gt;><br> > >>> Oliver<br> > >>><br> > >>=
;> On 21-Jan-08, at 9:33 AM, j.howes wrote:<br> > >>><br> &g=
t; >>>><br> > >>>> Clem,<br> > >>>&g=
t;<br> > >>>> OK I'll bite. I attached an image of my Wood<b=
r> > >> 33.<br> > >>> Its a pretty<br> > >>&g=
t;> high grade also. In fact I am interested in<br> > >>> se=
eing any images of<br> > >>>> better ones. Also can you post=
the image you<br> > >>> mention that shows<br> > >>&g=
t;> the die may have been lapped. I have never seen<br> > >>>=
; any other die<br> > >>>> states but I can't say that I hav=
e looked at<br> > >> more<br> > >>> than a few of thes=
e.<br> > >>>><br> > >>>> I think the "pile of=
ambergris" as you pungently<br> > >>> put it looks like<br> &g=
t; >>>> a pile of rocks to me or maybe a bag of clouds<br> >=
>> :-)<br> > >>>><br> > >>>><br> > =
>>>><br> > >>>> ----- Original Message -----<br>=
> >>>> From: Clement V. Schettino<br> > >>>>=
To: <a moz-do-not-send=3D"true" href=3D"mailto:colonial-coins%40yahoogroup=
s.com">colonial-coins@<wbr>yahoogroups.<wbr>com</a><br> > >>>&g=
t; Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 8:46 AM<br> > >>>> Subject=
: RE: [Colonial Numismatics] Wood 33 =3D<br> > >>> English Evas=
ion<br> > >>>><br> > >>>><br> > >>&g=
t;> Hey Jack,<br> > >>>><br> > >>>><br> &g=
t; >>>> Oh well, I guess if I want someone to "talk" to<br> >=
; >>> I'll have to "talk"<br> > >>>> about this ;-)=
<br> > >>>><br> > >>>><br> > >>>&=
gt; I agree that it does not look like an `R' on<br> > >> your<br>=
> >>> piece Jack or my<br> > >>>> piece (attach=
ed). And mine also sports that<br> > >> little<br> > >>&g=
t; perpendicular<br> > >>>> from the upright that yours show=
s intimating a<br> > >>> `P'.<br> > >>>><br> >=
; >>>><br> > >>>> But I do have an image in my f=
iles which pretty<br> > >>> clearly shows at<br> > >>&=
gt;> one time, probably before the die was polished<br> > >> or=
<br> > >>> lapped that it<br> > >>>> was in fact=
an `R'.<br> > >>>><br> > >>>><br> > >&=
gt;>> My question is=85 what's that pile of ambergris on<br> > >=
;>> Britannia's back<br> > >>>> is supposed to represe=
nt?<br> > >>>><br> > >>>><br> > >>&g=
t;> Clem<br> > >>>><br> > >>>><br> > &g=
t;>>> From: <a moz-do-not-send=3D"true" href=3D"mailto:colonial-co=
ins%40yahoogroups.com">colonial-coins@<wbr>yahoogroups.<wbr>com</a><br> >=
; >>> [<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"mailto:colonial"=
>mailto:colonial</a>-<br> > >>>> <a moz-do-not-send=3D"true"=
href=3D"mailto:coins%40yahoogroups.com">coins@yahoogroups.<wbr>com</a>] On=
Behalf Of j.howes<br> > >>>> Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008=
9:34 AM<br> > >>>> To: <a moz-do-not-send=3D"true" href=3D"=
mailto:colonial-coins%40yahoogroups.com">colonial-coins@<wbr>yahoogroups.<w=
br>com</a><br> > >>>> Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Wo=
od 33 =3D<br> > >>> English Evasion<br> > >>>><b=
r> > >>>><br> > >>>><br> > >>>>=
; Morris,<br> > >>>><br> > >>>><br> > >=
>>> See the attached closeup of the reverse legend.<br> > >&=
gt; I<br> > >>> don't think the<br> > >>>> 2nd l=
etter is a either a T or an I. Looks more<br> > >>> like an F o=
r maybe<br> > >>>> a P to me. Definitely not an R.<br> > =
>>>><br> > >>>><br> > >>>><br> &g=
t; >>>><br> > >>>> ----- Original Message -----<=
br> > >>>><br> > >>>> From: Morris Hankins<br=
> > >>>><br> > >>>> To: <a moz-do-not-send=3D=
"true" href=3D"mailto:colonial-coins%40yahoogroups.com">colonial-coins@<wbr=
>yahoogroups.<wbr>com</a><br> > >>>><br> > >>>&g=
t; Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2008 2:20 PM<br> > >>>><br> &=
gt; >>>> Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Wood 33 =3D<br> &g=
t; >>> English Evasion<br> > >>>><br> > >>=
>><br> > >>>> Phil, for some time now I have been putt=
ing off<br> > >>> writing a paper on<br> > >>>> =
this particular coin. Somehow or another, I was<br> > >>> under=
the<br> > >>>> impression that Oliver Hoover was submitting=
a<br> > >>> paper to CNL on this.<br> > >>>><br=
> > >>>><br> > >>>> I have examined numerous =
specimens on this coin<br> > >>> including two from<br> > &g=
t;>>> JPL, one from ODH, and several from others as<br> > >&=
gt; well<br> > >>> as my own.<br> > >>>><br> >=
; >>>><br> > >>>> Based on my observations of th=
ese, I assigned<br> > >>> Cobwright numbers G.<br> > >>=
;>> 0899./B.0099 to the coin with the obverse being<br> > >>=
> Gloriuvs III Vis<br> > >>>> and the reverse being Btiti=
. Bitit is totally<br> > >>> wrong in my opinion;<br> > >=
>>> specifically when observing the "I" on the<br> > >>&g=
t; obverse. This "I"<br> > >>>> matches the bases of the thi=
rd and fifth letters<br> > >>> on the reverse;<br> > >>=
;>> thus Btiti.<br> > >>>><br> > >>>><b=
r> > >>>> The misspellings in the legends are simply<br> >=
; >> errors<br> > >>> due to someone<br> > >>>=
;> not knowing how to spell, which was quite common<br> > >>>=
; in those times.<br> > >>>> Or he was drunk or hung-over. T=
he Btiti of the<br> > >>> reverse probably<br> > >>>=
;> started out to be BRITISH which was 'royally'<br> > >>> b=
ollixed.<br> > >>>><br> > >>>><br> > >&=
gt;>> Two examples showed the possibility of the 'L'<br> > >>=
; in<br> > >>> Gloriuvs possibly<br> > >>>> bein=
g an 'E', thus possibly being Georiuvs. One<br> > >>> of these =
that<br> > >>>> showed this was JPL's example which is the<b=
r> > >> highest<br> > >>> graded 'Wood 33'<br> > &g=
t;>>> known. The ones described as being BRTIT on the<br> > >=
;>> reverse that I<br> > >>>> have seen, appear to be =
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