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From: Morris Hankins <joshalso2000@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Wood 33 = English Evasion - Resend of Prior Msg
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Oliver, Tonight I will send pics and explanations again on why the reverse is BTITI and not BRTIT or BITIT. Also an explanation on why not an R or P. These will include photos of your coin as well as JPL's coins.
Morris
"Oliver D. Hoover" <oliver.hoover@sympatico.ca> wrote:
It should be BRITI.
Oliver
On 21-Jan-08, at 1:24 PM, Dan Burleson wrote:
Why is it B R T I T and not B R I T I.? I have one that seems to show a triangle right and half way up of the fourth letter and appears to be part of a T. I would think the I's would have bases.
Dan
John Lorenzo wrote: Look first for the presence of die polishing lines on the tops of
the letters ... then proceed to your interpretation of BRITAIN. If
the die polishing lines are not present with a loop it may either be
another die (i.e., we would expect more than one die marriage
marriage here - particularly after the situation when Ringo try to
sell me 150 W33 examples in one transaction in the 90's which
eventaully went to a Maine Collector) or the grade may not be high
enough on the correct die to see the faint images to complete the
word BRTIT. Keep digging ... on the most common R1 Evasion. In may
be that this is the only R1 Evasion known ... right Morris?
--- In colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com, "j.howes" <j.howes@...> wrote:
>
>
> I don't see any indication of an R. So, I would like to see
somone post an
> image that shows an early die state.
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Oliver D. Hoover" <oliver.hoover@...>
> To: <colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 11:36 AM
> Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Wood 33 = English Evasion
>
>
> You can make out the slight tail of the R on my example too.
>
> Oliver
>
> On 21-Jan-08, at 11:34 AM, B B wrote:
>
> > Here's an image from the Blacksmiths site folder.
> >
> > BB
> > --- B B <rlbcomuser@...> wrote:
> >
> >> All;
> >>
> >> Of the five pieces I have lying around here at home
> >> two have remnants of the foot or tail on the R.
> >> They
> >> are not really high grade examples so I would assume
> >> they are early die states. The legend definately
> >> reads BRTIT., So its undoubtably evasive. The
> >> mystery
> >> is the predominance of species in North America.
> >> This is most unusual for an evasion.
> >>
> >> As for the rocks, pillows or clowds, everything on
> >> both central devices is kind of rounded and
> >> indistinct
> >> and I just assumed that was the engravers style.
> >> Makes for a somewaht pleasing although Yogi Berra
> >> looking Geoge III bust.
> >>
> >> I don't have images of these early ststes at this
> >> point, but could get them tomorrow if there is an
> >> interest.
> >>
> >> Bob
> >>
> >>
> >> --- "Oliver D. Hoover" <oliver.hoover@...>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> It makes me think of a really lame attempt to
> >>> imitate the rocks on
> >>> the 1722 Hibernia pattern. Of course, I have no
> >> idea
> >>> why someone
> >>> might do such a thing.
> >>>
> >>> Oliver
> >>>
> >>> On 21-Jan-08, at 9:33 AM, j.howes wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Clem,
> >>>>
> >>>> OK I'll bite. I attached an image of my Wood
> >> 33.
> >>> Its a pretty
> >>>> high grade also. In fact I am interested in
> >>> seeing any images of
> >>>> better ones. Also can you post the image you
> >>> mention that shows
> >>>> the die may have been lapped. I have never seen
> >>> any other die
> >>>> states but I can't say that I have looked at
> >> more
> >>> than a few of these.
> >>>>
> >>>> I think the "pile of ambergris" as you pungently
> >>> put it looks like
> >>>> a pile of rocks to me or maybe a bag of clouds
> >> :-)
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>> From: Clement V. Schettino
> >>>> To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
> >>>> Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 8:46 AM
> >>>> Subject: RE: [Colonial Numismatics] Wood 33 =
> >>> English Evasion
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Hey Jack,
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Oh well, I guess if I want someone to "talk" to
> >>> I'll have to "talk"
> >>>> about this ;-)
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> I agree that it does not look like an `R' on
> >> your
> >>> piece Jack or my
> >>>> piece (attached). And mine also sports that
> >> little
> >>> perpendicular
> >>>> from the upright that yours shows intimating a
> >>> `P'.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> But I do have an image in my files which pretty
> >>> clearly shows at
> >>>> one time, probably before the die was polished
> >> or
> >>> lapped that it
> >>>> was in fact an `R'.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> My question is� what's that pile of ambergris on
> >>> Britannia's back
> >>>> is supposed to represent?
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Clem
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> From: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
> >>> [mailto:colonial-
> >>>> coins@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of j.howes
> >>>> Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 9:34 AM
> >>>> To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
> >>>> Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Wood 33 =
> >>> English Evasion
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Morris,
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> See the attached closeup of the reverse legend.
> >> I
> >>> don't think the
> >>>> 2nd letter is a either a T or an I. Looks more
> >>> like an F or maybe
> >>>> a P to me. Definitely not an R.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>
> >>>> From: Morris Hankins
> >>>>
> >>>> To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
> >>>>
> >>>> Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2008 2:20 PM
> >>>>
> >>>> Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Wood 33 =
> >>> English Evasion
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Phil, for some time now I have been putting off
> >>> writing a paper on
> >>>> this particular coin. Somehow or another, I was
> >>> under the
> >>>> impression that Oliver Hoover was submitting a
> >>> paper to CNL on this.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> I have examined numerous specimens on this coin
> >>> including two from
> >>>> JPL, one from ODH, and several from others as
> >> well
> >>> as my own.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Based on my observations of these, I assigned
> >>> Cobwright numbers G.
> >>>> 0899./B.0099 to the coin with the obverse being
> >>> Gloriuvs III Vis
> >>>> and the reverse being Btiti. Bitit is totally
> >>> wrong in my opinion;
> >>>> specifically when observing the "I" on the
> >>> obverse. This "I"
> >>>> matches the bases of the third and fifth letters
> >>> on the reverse;
> >>>> thus Btiti.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> The misspellings in the legends are simply
> >> errors
> >>> due to someone
> >>>> not knowing how to spell, which was quite common
> >>> in those times.
> >>>> Or he was drunk or hung-over. The Btiti of the
> >>> reverse probably
> >>>> started out to be BRITISH which was 'royally'
> >>> bollixed.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Two examples showed the possibility of the 'L'
> >> in
> >>> Gloriuvs possibly
> >>>> being an 'E', thus possibly being Georiuvs. One
> >>> of these that
> >>>> showed this was JPL's example which is the
> >> highest
> >>> graded 'Wood 33'
> >>>> known. The ones described as being BRTIT on the
> >>> reverse that I
> >>>> have seen, appear to be a metal flow problem and
> >>> nothing else.
> >>>> Trying to squeeze an 'R' in simply doesn't work.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> In summation, these are English Evasions
> >> imported
> >>> into the Canada
> >>>> and the U.S. and were well circulated in the
> >>> Northeast states.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> > === message truncated ===
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
__________________________________________________________
_
> > ______________
> > Be a better friend, newshound, and
> > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://
> > mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> > <b95c.jpg>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
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<div>Oliver, Tonight I will send pics and explanations again on why the reverse is BTITI and not BRTIT or BITIT. Also an explanation on why not an R or P. These will include photos of your coin as well as JPL's coins.</div> <div> </div> <div>Morris<BR><BR><B><I>"Oliver D. Hoover" <oliver.hoover@sympatico.ca></I></B> wrote:</div> <BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">It should be BRITI. <DIV><BR class=webkit-block-placeholder></DIV> <DIV>Oliver<BR> <DIV> <DIV>On 21-Jan-08, at 1:24 PM, Dan Burleson wrote:</DIV><BR class=Apple-interchange-newline> <BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">Why is it B R T I T and not B R I T I.? I have one that seems to show a triangle right and half way up of the fourth letter and appears to be part of a T. I would think the I's would have bases.<BR><BR>Dan<BR><BR>John Lorenzo wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE cite=mid:fn2kgm+h9fo@eGroups.com type="cite"> <DIV id=ygrp-text>
<div>Look first for the presence of die polishing lines on the tops of <BR>the letters ... then proceed to your interpretation of BRITAIN. If <BR>the die polishing lines are not present with a loop it may either be <BR>another die (i.e., we would expect more than one die marriage <BR>marriage here - particularly after the situation when Ringo try to <BR>sell me 150 W33 examples in one transaction in the 90's which <BR>eventaully went to a Maine Collector) or the grade may not be high <BR>enough on the correct die to see the faint images to complete the <BR>word BRTIT. Keep digging ... on the most common R1 Evasion. In may <BR>be that this is the only R1 Evasion known ... right Morris? <BR><BR>--- In <A href="mailto:colonial-coins%40yahoogroups.com" moz-do-not-send="true">colonial-coins@<WBR>yahoogroups.<WBR>com</A>, "j.howes" <j.howes@...<WBR>> wrote:<BR>><BR>> <BR>> I don't see any indication of an R. So, I would like to see <BR>somone post an <BR>>
image that shows an early die state.<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> ----- Original Message ----- <BR>> From: "Oliver D. Hoover" <oliver.hoover@<WBR>...><BR>> To: <<A href="mailto:colonial-coins%40yahoogroups.com" moz-do-not-send="true">colonial-coins@<WBR>yahoogroups.<WBR>com</A>><BR>> Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 11:36 AM<BR>> Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Wood 33 = English Evasion<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> You can make out the slight tail of the R on my example too.<BR>> <BR>> Oliver<BR>> <BR>> On 21-Jan-08, at 11:34 AM, B B wrote:<BR>> <BR>> > Here's an image from the Blacksmiths site folder.<BR>> ><BR>> > BB<BR>> > --- B B <rlbcomuser@<WBR>...> wrote:<BR>> ><BR>> >> All;<BR>> >><BR>> >> Of the five pieces I have lying around here at home<BR>> >> two have remnants of the foot or tail on the R.<BR>> >> They<BR>> >> are not really
high grade examples so I would assume<BR>> >> they are early die states. The legend definately<BR>> >> reads BRTIT., So its undoubtably evasive. The<BR>> >> mystery<BR>> >> is the predominance of species in North America.<BR>> >> This is most unusual for an evasion.<BR>> >><BR>> >> As for the rocks, pillows or clowds, everything on<BR>> >> both central devices is kind of rounded and<BR>> >> indistinct<BR>> >> and I just assumed that was the engravers style.<BR>> >> Makes for a somewaht pleasing although Yogi Berra<BR>> >> looking Geoge III bust.<BR>> >><BR>> >> I don't have images of these early ststes at this<BR>> >> point, but could get them tomorrow if there is an<BR>> >> interest.<BR>> >><BR>> >> Bob<BR>> >><BR>> >><BR>> >> --- "Oliver D. Hoover"
<oliver.hoover@<WBR>...><BR>> >> wrote:<BR>> >><BR>> >>> It makes me think of a really lame attempt to<BR>> >>> imitate the rocks on<BR>> >>> the 1722 Hibernia pattern. Of course, I have no<BR>> >> idea<BR>> >>> why someone<BR>> >>> might do such a thing.<BR>> >>><BR>> >>> Oliver<BR>> >>><BR>> >>> On 21-Jan-08, at 9:33 AM, j.howes wrote:<BR>> >>><BR>> >>>><BR>> >>>> Clem,<BR>> >>>><BR>> >>>> OK I'll bite. I attached an image of my Wood<BR>> >> 33.<BR>> >>> Its a pretty<BR>> >>>> high grade also. In fact I am interested in<BR>> >>> seeing any images of<BR>> >>>> better ones. Also can you post the image you<BR>> >>> mention that shows<BR>> >>>> the die may have been lapped. I
have never seen<BR>> >>> any other die<BR>> >>>> states but I can't say that I have looked at<BR>> >> more<BR>> >>> than a few of these.<BR>> >>>><BR>> >>>> I think the "pile of ambergris" as you pungently<BR>> >>> put it looks like<BR>> >>>> a pile of rocks to me or maybe a bag of clouds<BR>> >> :-)<BR>> >>>><BR>> >>>><BR>> >>>><BR>> >>>> ----- Original Message -----<BR>> >>>> From: Clement V. Schettino<BR>> >>>> To: <A href="mailto:colonial-coins%40yahoogroups.com" moz-do-not-send="true">colonial-coins@<WBR>yahoogroups.<WBR>com</A><BR>> >>>> Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 8:46 AM<BR>> >>>> Subject: RE: [Colonial Numismatics] Wood 33 =<BR>> >>> English Evasion<BR>> >>>><BR>> >>>><BR>>
>>>> Hey Jack,<BR>> >>>><BR>> >>>><BR>> >>>> Oh well, I guess if I want someone to "talk" to<BR>> >>> I'll have to "talk"<BR>> >>>> about this ;-)<BR>> >>>><BR>> >>>><BR>> >>>> I agree that it does not look like an `R' on<BR>> >> your<BR>> >>> piece Jack or my<BR>> >>>> piece (attached). And mine also sports that<BR>> >> little<BR>> >>> perpendicular<BR>> >>>> from the upright that yours shows intimating a<BR>> >>> `P'.<BR>> >>>><BR>> >>>><BR>> >>>> But I do have an image in my files which pretty<BR>> >>> clearly shows at<BR>> >>>> one time, probably before the die was polished<BR>> >> or<BR>> >>> lapped that it<BR>> >>>> was in fact an `R'.<BR>>
>>>><BR>> >>>><BR>> >>>> My question is� what's that pile of ambergris on<BR>> >>> Britannia's back<BR>> >>>> is supposed to represent?<BR>> >>>><BR>> >>>><BR>> >>>> Clem<BR>> >>>><BR>> >>>><BR>> >>>> From: <A href="mailto:colonial-coins%40yahoogroups.com" moz-do-not-send="true">colonial-coins@<WBR>yahoogroups.<WBR>com</A><BR>> >>> [<A class=moz-txt-link-freetext href="mailto:colonial">mailto:colonial</A>-<BR>> >>>> <A href="mailto:coins%40yahoogroups.com" moz-do-not-send="true">coins@yahoogroups.<WBR>com</A>] On Behalf Of j.howes<BR>> >>>> Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 9:34 AM<BR>> >>>> To: <A href="mailto:colonial-coins%40yahoogroups.com" moz-do-not-send="true">colonial-coins@<WBR>yahoogroups.<WBR>com</A><BR>> >>>> Subject: Re: [Colonial
Numismatics] Wood 33 =<BR>> >>> English Evasion<BR>> >>>><BR>> >>>><BR>> >>>><BR>> >>>> Morris,<BR>> >>>><BR>> >>>><BR>> >>>> See the attached closeup of the reverse legend.<BR>> >> I<BR>> >>> don't think the<BR>> >>>> 2nd letter is a either a T or an I. Looks more<BR>> >>> like an F or maybe<BR>> >>>> a P to me. Definitely not an R.<BR>> >>>><BR>> >>>><BR>> >>>><BR>> >>>><BR>> >>>> ----- Original Message -----<BR>> >>>><BR>> >>>> From: Morris Hankins<BR>> >>>><BR>> >>>> To: <A href="mailto:colonial-coins%40yahoogroups.com" moz-do-not-send="true">colonial-coins@<WBR>yahoogroups.<WBR>com</A><BR>> >>>><BR>> >>>> Sent: Saturday, January
19, 2008 2:20 PM<BR>> >>>><BR>> >>>> Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Wood 33 =<BR>> >>> English Evasion<BR>> >>>><BR>> >>>><BR>> >>>> Phil, for some time now I have been putting off<BR>> >>> writing a paper on<BR>> >>>> this particular coin. Somehow or another, I was<BR>> >>> under the<BR>> >>>> impression that Oliver Hoover was submitting a<BR>> >>> paper to CNL on this.<BR>> >>>><BR>> >>>><BR>> >>>> I have examined numerous specimens on this coin<BR>> >>> including two from<BR>> >>>> JPL, one from ODH, and several from others as<BR>> >> well<BR>> >>> as my own.<BR>> >>>><BR>> >>>><BR>> >>>> Based on my observations of these, I assigned<BR>> >>> Cobwright numbers
G.<BR>> >>>> 0899./B.0099 to the coin with the obverse being<BR>> >>> Gloriuvs III Vis<BR>> >>>> and the reverse being Btiti. Bitit is totally<BR>> >>> wrong in my opinion;<BR>> >>>> specifically when observing the "I" on the<BR>> >>> obverse. This "I"<BR>> >>>> matches the bases of the third and fifth letters<BR>> >>> on the reverse;<BR>> >>>> thus Btiti.<BR>> >>>><BR>> >>>><BR>> >>>> The misspellings in the legends are simply<BR>> >> errors<BR>> >>> due to someone<BR>> >>>> not knowing how to spell, which was quite common<BR>> >>> in those times.<BR>> >>>> Or he was drunk or hung-over. The Btiti of the<BR>> >>> reverse probably<BR>> >>>> started out to be BRITISH which was 'royally'<BR>> >>>
bollixed.<BR>> >>>><BR>> >>>><BR>> >>>> Two examples showed the possibility of the 'L'<BR>> >> in<BR>> >>> Gloriuvs possibly<BR>> >>>> being an 'E', thus possibly being Georiuvs. One<BR>> >>> of these that<BR>> >>>> showed this was JPL's example which is the<BR>> >> highest<BR>> >>> graded 'Wood 33'<BR>> >>>> known. The ones described as being BRTIT on the<BR>> >>> reverse that I<BR>> >>>> have seen, appear to be a metal flow problem and<BR>> >>> nothing else.<BR>> >>>> Trying to squeeze an 'R' in simply doesn't work.<BR>> >>>><BR>> >>>><BR>> >>>> In summation, these are English Evasions<BR>> >> imported<BR>> >>> into the Canada<BR>> >>>> and the U.S. and were well circulated in the<BR>>
>>> Northeast states.<BR>> >>>><BR>> >>>><BR>> >><BR>> > === message truncated ===<BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>> > <BR>____________<WBR>_________<WBR>_________<WBR>_________<WBR>_________<WBR>_________<WBR>_<BR>_<BR>> > ____________<WBR>__<BR>> > Be a better friend, newshound, and<BR>> > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. <A class=moz-txt-link-freetext href="http:///">http://</A><BR>> > mobile.yahoo.<WBR>com/;_ylt=<WBR>Ahu06i62sR8HDtDy<WBR>pao8Wcj9tAcJ<BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>> > Yahoo! Groups Links<BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>> > <b95c.jpg><BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> Yahoo! Groups Links<BR>><BR><BR></div></DIV><!--End group email --></BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN style="COLOR: white" width="1"></SPAN></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR></DIV><SPAN style="COLOR: white" width="1"></SPAN> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
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