| Contenuto dell'articolo |
- From CNLF@Comcast.net Mon Jan 21 12:27:11 2008
Return-Path: <jcspilman1@comcast.net>
X-Sender: jcspilman1@comcast.net
X-Apparently-To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
X-Received: (qmail 35637 invoked from network); 21 Jan 2008 20:27:09 -0000
X-Received: from unknown (69.147.108.202)
by m49.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 21 Jan 2008 20:27:09 -0000
X-Received: from unknown (HELO QMTA06.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net) (76.96.30.56)
by mta3.grp.re1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Jan 2008 20:27:08 -0000
X-Received: from OMTA13.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.52])
by QMTA06.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast
id fs1b1Y00M17UAYk0A0DD00; Mon, 21 Jan 2008 20:27:08 +0000
X-Received: from [192.168.1.102] ([71.207.177.239])
by OMTA13.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast
id fwSN1Y00A5AHdfK8Z00000; Mon, 21 Jan 2008 20:26:23 +0000
X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.0 c=1 a=ImRuMNhpngAA:10 a=CjxXgO3LAAAA:8 a=z6t8bn2Vid7RlteaHNMA:9 a=2AFarLPFZAHZhP1fVYkA:7 a=3fi7F9jKHnbwO_sAluiBM0VACKUA:4 a=ao4RW71Vw8YA:10 a=jeN6Q-uZn2oA:10 a=zUBsD6tbDSsA:10 a=izVh4VyKhiZIPpAZdO8A:9 a=UxKiJHYWqEBmFXdLHKYA:7 a=DHwpNyxMhBDS_kzVlq-gxzuBDoIA:4 a=6DzqsOTpF34A:10 a=AfD3MYMu9mQA:10
Message-ID: <4795001A.1030104@Comcast.net>
Disposition-Notification-To: James Spilman <JCSpilman1@Comcast.net>
Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 14:27:06 -0600
Organization: CNLF/MacBookPro
User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.14 (Macintosh/20071210)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
References: <fn2kgm+h9fo@eGroups.com> <4794E375.9060901@charter.net> <BAYC1-PASMTP157941FC3B8CF687BA27E99D3D0@CEZ.ICE>
In-Reply-To: <BAYC1-PASMTP157941FC3B8CF687BA27E99D3D0@CEZ.ICE>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="------------060805060203040203010800"
X-Originating-IP: 76.96.30.56
X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0:0
X-eGroups-From: James Spilman <JCSpilman1@Comcast.net>
From: James Spilman <CNLF@Comcast.net>
Reply-To: CNLF@Comcast.net
Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Wood 33 = English Evasion
X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=166193415; y=U68kMjFsPGy65W8FOYLqOFdeqD-dJdKuHKhMN5HbQqY2VRdXNVU
X-Yahoo-Profile: shamus12017
--------------060805060203040203010800
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
John --
NOTE --Die polishing lines DO NOT appear on the "tops of letters"
Jim/CNLF
============================================
Oliver D. Hoover wrote:
> It should be BRITI.
>
> Oliver
> On 21-Jan-08, at 1:24 PM, Dan Burleson wrote:
>
>> Why is it B R T I T and not B R I T I.? I have one that seems to show
>> a triangle right and half way up of the fourth letter and appears to
>> be part of a T. I would think the I's would have bases.
>>
>> Dan
>>
>> John Lorenzo wrote:
>>>
>>> Look first for the presence of die polishing lines on the tops of
>>> the letters ... then proceed to your interpretation of BRITAIN. If
>>> the die polishing lines are not present with a loop it may either be
>>> another die (i.e., we would expect more than one die marriage
>>> marriage here - particularly after the situation when Ringo try to
>>> sell me 150 W33 examples in one transaction in the 90's which
>>> eventaully went to a Maine Collector) or the grade may not be high
>>> enough on the correct die to see the faint images to complete the
>>> word BRTIT. Keep digging ... on the most common R1 Evasion. In may
>>> be that this is the only R1 Evasion known ... right Morris?
>>>
>>> --- In colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
>>> <mailto:colonial-coins%40yahoogroups.com>, "j.howes" <j.howes@...>
>>> wrote:
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > I don't see any indication of an R. So, I would like to see
>>> somone post an
>>> > image that shows an early die state.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > ----- Original Message -----
>>> > From: "Oliver D. Hoover" <oliver.hoover@...>
>>> > To: <colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
>>> <mailto:colonial-coins%40yahoogroups.com>>
>>> > Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 11:36 AM
>>> > Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Wood 33 = English Evasion
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > You can make out the slight tail of the R on my example too.
>>> >
>>> > Oliver
>>> >
>>> > On 21-Jan-08, at 11:34 AM, B B wrote:
>>> >
>>> > > Here's an image from the Blacksmiths site folder.
>>> > >
>>> > > BB
>>> > > --- B B <rlbcomuser@...> wrote:
>>> > >
>>> > >> All;
>>> > >>
>>> > >> Of the five pieces I have lying around here at home
>>> > >> two have remnants of the foot or tail on the R.
>>> > >> They
>>> > >> are not really high grade examples so I would assume
>>> > >> they are early die states. The legend definately
>>> > >> reads BRTIT., So its undoubtably evasive. The
>>> > >> mystery
>>> > >> is the predominance of species in North America.
>>> > >> This is most unusual for an evasion.
>>> > >>
>>> > >> As for the rocks, pillows or clowds, everything on
>>> > >> both central devices is kind of rounded and
>>> > >> indistinct
>>> > >> and I just assumed that was the engravers style.
>>> > >> Makes for a somewaht pleasing although Yogi Berra
>>> > >> looking Geoge III bust.
>>> > >>
>>> > >> I don't have images of these early ststes at this
>>> > >> point, but could get them tomorrow if there is an
>>> > >> interest.
>>> > >>
>>> > >> Bob
>>> > >>
>>> > >>
>>> > >> --- "Oliver D. Hoover" <oliver.hoover@...>
>>> > >> wrote:
>>> > >>
>>> > >>> It makes me think of a really lame attempt to
>>> > >>> imitate the rocks on
>>> > >>> the 1722 Hibernia pattern. Of course, I have no
>>> > >> idea
>>> > >>> why someone
>>> > >>> might do such a thing.
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>> Oliver
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>> On 21-Jan-08, at 9:33 AM, j.howes wrote:
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>> Clem,
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>> OK I'll bite. I attached an image of my Wood
>>> > >> 33.
>>> > >>> Its a pretty
>>> > >>>> high grade also. In fact I am interested in
>>> > >>> seeing any images of
>>> > >>>> better ones. Also can you post the image you
>>> > >>> mention that shows
>>> > >>>> the die may have been lapped. I have never seen
>>> > >>> any other die
>>> > >>>> states but I can't say that I have looked at
>>> > >> more
>>> > >>> than a few of these.
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>> I think the "pile of ambergris" as you pungently
>>> > >>> put it looks like
>>> > >>>> a pile of rocks to me or maybe a bag of clouds
>>> > >> :-)
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> > >>>> From: Clement V. Schettino
>>> > >>>> To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
>>> <mailto:colonial-coins%40yahoogroups.com>
>>> > >>>> Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 8:46 AM
>>> > >>>> Subject: RE: [Colonial Numismatics] Wood 33 =
>>> > >>> English Evasion
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>> Hey Jack,
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>> Oh well, I guess if I want someone to "talk" to
>>> > >>> I'll have to "talk"
>>> > >>>> about this ;-)
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>> I agree that it does not look like an `R' on
>>> > >> your
>>> > >>> piece Jack or my
>>> > >>>> piece (attached). And mine also sports that
>>> > >> little
>>> > >>> perpendicular
>>> > >>>> from the upright that yours shows intimating a
>>> > >>> `P'.
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>> But I do have an image in my files which pretty
>>> > >>> clearly shows at
>>> > >>>> one time, probably before the die was polished
>>> > >> or
>>> > >>> lapped that it
>>> > >>>> was in fact an `R'.
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>> My question is... what's that pile of ambergris on
>>> > >>> Britannia's back
>>> > >>>> is supposed to represent?
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>> Clem
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>> From: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
>>> <mailto:colonial-coins%40yahoogroups.com>
>>> > >>> [mailto:colonial-
>>> > >>>> coins@yahoogroups.com <mailto:coins%40yahoogroups.com>] On
>>> Behalf Of j.howes
>>> > >>>> Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 9:34 AM
>>> > >>>> To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
>>> <mailto:colonial-coins%40yahoogroups.com>
>>> > >>>> Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Wood 33 =
>>> > >>> English Evasion
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>> Morris,
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>> See the attached closeup of the reverse legend.
>>> > >> I
>>> > >>> don't think the
>>> > >>>> 2nd letter is a either a T or an I. Looks more
>>> > >>> like an F or maybe
>>> > >>>> a P to me. Definitely not an R.
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>> From: Morris Hankins
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>> To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
>>> <mailto:colonial-coins%40yahoogroups.com>
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>> Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2008 2:20 PM
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>> Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Wood 33 =
>>> > >>> English Evasion
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>> Phil, for some time now I have been putting off
>>> > >>> writing a paper on
>>> > >>>> this particular coin. Somehow or another, I was
>>> > >>> under the
>>> > >>>> impression that Oliver Hoover was submitting a
>>> > >>> paper to CNL on this.
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>> I have examined numerous specimens on this coin
>>> > >>> including two from
>>> > >>>> JPL, one from ODH, and several from others as
>>> > >> well
>>> > >>> as my own.
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>> Based on my observations of these, I assigned
>>> > >>> Cobwright numbers G.
>>> > >>>> 0899./B.0099 to the coin with the obverse being
>>> > >>> Gloriuvs III Vis
>>> > >>>> and the reverse being Btiti. Bitit is totally
>>> > >>> wrong in my opinion;
>>> > >>>> specifically when observing the "I" on the
>>> > >>> obverse. This "I"
>>> > >>>> matches the bases of the third and fifth letters
>>> > >>> on the reverse;
>>> > >>>> thus Btiti.
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>> The misspellings in the legends are simply
>>> > >> errors
>>> > >>> due to someone
>>> > >>>> not knowing how to spell, which was quite common
>>> > >>> in those times.
>>> > >>>> Or he was drunk or hung-over. The Btiti of the
>>> > >>> reverse probably
>>> > >>>> started out to be BRITISH which was 'royally'
>>> > >>> bollixed.
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>> Two examples showed the possibility of the 'L'
>>> > >> in
>>> > >>> Gloriuvs possibly
>>> > >>>> being an 'E', thus possibly being Georiuvs. One
>>> > >>> of these that
>>> > >>>> showed this was JPL's example which is the
>>> > >> highest
>>> > >>> graded 'Wood 33'
>>> > >>>> known. The ones described as being BRTIT on the
>>> > >>> reverse that I
>>> > >>>> have seen, appear to be a metal flow problem and
>>> > >>> nothing else.
>>> > >>>> Trying to squeeze an 'R' in simply doesn't work.
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>> In summation, these are English Evasions
>>> > >> imported
>>> > >>> into the Canada
>>> > >>>> and the U.S. and were well circulated in the
>>> > >>> Northeast states.
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>
>>> > > === message truncated ===
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> __________________________________________________________
>>> _
>>> > > ______________
>>> > > Be a better friend, newshound, and
>>> > > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://
>>> > > mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > <b95c.jpg>
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Yahoo! Groups Links
>>> >
>>>
>
>
--------------060805060203040203010800
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
<head>
<meta content="text/html;charset=ISO-8859-1" http-equiv="Content-Type">
</head>
<body bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
<tt>John --<br>
<br>
NOTE --Die polishing lines DO NOT appear on the "tops of letters"<br>
<br>
Jim/CNLF<br>
<br>
============================================<br>
</tt><br>
Oliver D. Hoover wrote:
<blockquote cite="midBAYC1-PASMTP157941FC3B8CF687BA27E99D3D0@CEZ.ICE"
type="cite">It should be BRITI.
<div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder">
</div>
<div>Oliver<br>
<div>
<div>On 21-Jan-08, at 1:24 PM, Dan Burleson wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<blockquote type="cite"> Why is it B R T I T and not B R I T I.? I
have one that seems to show a triangle right and half way up of the
fourth letter and appears to be part of a T. I would think the I's
would have bases.<br>
<br>
Dan<br>
<br>
John Lorenzo wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:fn2kgm+h9fo@eGroups.com" type="cite">
<div id="ygrp-text">
<p>Look first for the presence of die polishing lines on the tops
of <br>
the letters ... then proceed to your interpretation of BRITAIN. If <br>
the die polishing lines are not present with a loop it may either be <br>
another die (i.e., we would expect more than one die marriage <br>
marriage here - particularly after the situation when Ringo try to <br>
sell me 150 W33 examples in one transaction in the 90's which <br>
eventaully went to a Maine Collector) or the grade may not be high <br>
enough on the correct die to see the faint images to complete the <br>
word BRTIT. Keep digging ... on the most common R1 Evasion. In may <br>
be that this is the only R1 Evasion known ... right Morris? <br>
<br>
--- In <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:colonial-coins%40yahoogroups.com">colonial-coins@<wbr>yahoogroups.<wbr>com</a>,
"j.howes" <j.howes@...<wbr>> wrote:<br>
><br>
> <br>
> I don't see any indication of an R. So, I would like to see <br>
somone post an <br>
> image that shows an early die state.<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> ----- Original Message ----- <br>
> From: "Oliver D. Hoover" <oliver.hoover@<wbr>...><br>
> To: <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:colonial-coins%40yahoogroups.com">colonial-coins@<wbr>yahoogroups.<wbr>com</a>><br>
> Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 11:36 AM<br>
> Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Wood 33 = English Evasion<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> You can make out the slight tail of the R on my example too.<br>
> <br>
> Oliver<br>
> <br>
> On 21-Jan-08, at 11:34 AM, B B wrote:<br>
> <br>
> > Here's an image from the Blacksmiths site folder.<br>
> ><br>
> > BB<br>
> > --- B B <rlbcomuser@<wbr>...> wrote:<br>
> ><br>
> >> All;<br>
> >><br>
> >> Of the five pieces I have lying around here at home<br>
> >> two have remnants of the foot or tail on the R.<br>
> >> They<br>
> >> are not really high grade examples so I would assume<br>
> >> they are early die states. The legend definately<br>
> >> reads BRTIT., So its undoubtably evasive. The<br>
> >> mystery<br>
> >> is the predominance of species in North America.<br>
> >> This is most unusual for an evasion.<br>
> >><br>
> >> As for the rocks, pillows or clowds, everything on<br>
> >> both central devices is kind of rounded and<br>
> >> indistinct<br>
> >> and I just assumed that was the engravers style.<br>
> >> Makes for a somewaht pleasing although Yogi Berra<br>
> >> looking Geoge III bust.<br>
> >><br>
> >> I don't have images of these early ststes at this<br>
> >> point, but could get them tomorrow if there is an<br>
> >> interest.<br>
> >><br>
> >> Bob<br>
> >><br>
> >><br>
> >> --- "Oliver D. Hoover" <oliver.hoover@<wbr>...><br>
> >> wrote:<br>
> >><br>
> >>> It makes me think of a really lame attempt to<br>
> >>> imitate the rocks on<br>
> >>> the 1722 Hibernia pattern. Of course, I have no<br>
> >> idea<br>
> >>> why someone<br>
> >>> might do such a thing.<br>
> >>><br>
> >>> Oliver<br>
> >>><br>
> >>> On 21-Jan-08, at 9:33 AM, j.howes wrote:<br>
> >>><br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>> Clem,<br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>> OK I'll bite. I attached an image of my Wood<br>
> >> 33.<br>
> >>> Its a pretty<br>
> >>>> high grade also. In fact I am interested in<br>
> >>> seeing any images of<br>
> >>>> better ones. Also can you post the image you<br>
> >>> mention that shows<br>
> >>>> the die may have been lapped. I have never seen<br>
> >>> any other die<br>
> >>>> states but I can't say that I have looked at<br>
> >> more<br>
> >>> than a few of these.<br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>> I think the "pile of ambergris" as you pungently<br>
> >>> put it looks like<br>
> >>>> a pile of rocks to me or maybe a bag of clouds<br>
> >> :-)<br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>> ----- Original Message -----<br>
> >>>> From: Clement V. Schettino<br>
> >>>> To: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:colonial-coins%40yahoogroups.com">colonial-coins@<wbr>yahoogroups.<wbr>com</a><br>
> >>>> Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 8:46 AM<br>
> >>>> Subject: RE: [Colonial Numismatics] Wood 33 =<br>
> >>> English Evasion<br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>> Hey Jack,<br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>> Oh well, I guess if I want someone to "talk" to<br>
> >>> I'll have to "talk"<br>
> >>>> about this ;-)<br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>> I agree that it does not look like an `R' on<br>
> >> your<br>
> >>> piece Jack or my<br>
> >>>> piece (attached). And mine also sports that<br>
> >> little<br>
> >>> perpendicular<br>
> >>>> from the upright that yours shows intimating a<br>
> >>> `P'.<br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>> But I do have an image in my files which pretty<br>
> >>> clearly shows at<br>
> >>>> one time, probably before the die was polished<br>
> >> or<br>
> >>> lapped that it<br>
> >>>> was in fact an `R'.<br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>> My question is… what's that pile of ambergris on<br>
> >>> Britannia's back<br>
> >>>> is supposed to represent?<br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>> Clem<br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>> From: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:colonial-coins%40yahoogroups.com">colonial-coins@<wbr>yahoogroups.<wbr>com</a><br>
> >>> [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="mailto:colonial">mailto:colonial</a>-<br>
> >>>> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:coins%40yahoogroups.com">coins@yahoogroups.<wbr>com</a>]
On Behalf Of j.howes<br>
> >>>> Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 9:34 AM<br>
> >>>> To: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:colonial-coins%40yahoogroups.com">colonial-coins@<wbr>yahoogroups.<wbr>com</a><br>
> >>>> Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Wood 33 =<br>
> >>> English Evasion<br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>> Morris,<br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>> See the attached closeup of the reverse legend.<br>
> >> I<br>
> >>> don't think the<br>
> >>>> 2nd letter is a either a T or an I. Looks more<br>
> >>> like an F or maybe<br>
> >>>> a P to me. Definitely not an R.<br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>> ----- Original Message -----<br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>> From: Morris Hankins<br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>> To: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:colonial-coins%40yahoogroups.com">colonial-coins@<wbr>yahoogroups.<wbr>com</a><br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>> Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2008 2:20 PM<br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>> Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Wood 33 =<br>
> >>> English Evasion<br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>> Phil, for some time now I have been putting off<br>
|
|---|
