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- From jlupia2@yahoo.com Fri Jun 27 16:33:18 2008
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From: John Lupia <jlupia2@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: jlupia2@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: The Durst's, was Re: [Colonial Numismatics] FW: NE XII in copper-BECKER
X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=95982273; y=csvHylxcdOQR9OtW0xlnJtvAj3OExJ0uC5gOdjxEaxK5oQ
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John:
Every specialist I have ever known in museums and universities caution agai=
nst reliance on photographs for any artifact, coin included. Photographs, t=
hough useful at times, can work the other way round and be misleading and p=
resent faulty information depending how how the photo was taken. Speaking o=
f being taken I once paid hugely for a half cent through a misleading photo=
graph. Case closed.
the other John
John N. Lupia III
New Jersey, USA; Beirut, Lebanon=20
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Roman-Catholic-News/
God Bless Everyone
--- On Fri, 6/27/08, John Louis <johnwlouis@comcast.net> wrote:
> From: John Louis <johnwlouis@comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: The Durst's, was Re: [Colonial Numismatics] FW: NE XII in co=
pper-BECKER
> To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Friday, June 27, 2008, 7:08 PM
> where does the para-phrase "a picture is like a
> thousand words" come from?
> jwl
>=20
>=20
> ----- Original Message -----=20
> From: John Lupia=20
> To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com=20
> Sent: Friday, June 27, 2008 12:24 PM
> Subject: The Durst's, was Re: [Colonial Numismatics]
> FW: NE XII in copper-BECKER
>=20
>=20
> I have an antique reader from about 1800 in which
> schoolboys penned their names on the front fly pages and
> occasional lines of verse. One poem I have found charming,
> amusing and illuminating.=20
>=20
> Thrice I did good and that I heard never
> Once I did bad and that I heard ever.
>=20
> Well printed photos of coins are evidently very important
> for collectors to use as exemplars comparing the details of
> the coin in print to the one in hand so see where it falls
> in classification. Sanford Durst made many hundreds of rare
> and obscure titles in numismatic literature available at
> inexpensive prices. Since the operative word is inexpensive
> one should keep in mind that by definition it could never
> mean expensive high quality photographic plate
> reproduction. There anyone should know from common sense
> that the main import of the value of Durst Publications is
> on the texts. Although, perhaps, I am very fortunate, that
> the copies of plates I have found are adequate, but, I
> agree that they are far from superior.=20
>=20
> I am aware it is a very sensitive subject, and also a
> complicated one. Images are valuable sources of
> information. But a well written text follows the images
> very closely in every detail describing what is visually
> evident down to the minute detail. Poorly written texts do
> not serve in this capacity and rely on the photographic
> plate to express and convey what they cannot. The true
> value of a numismatic author, therefore, lies in their
> ability to convey well in words what is obviated by plates,
> and plates, therefore only serve to enhance the text of a
> well written book offering supporting visual details which
> were already painted as pictures in the minds of the
> readers from the words. As in all well written literature
> authors paint pictures in the minds of readers, depending
> on the genre, how much of the picture is deliberately left
> to one's imagination. Consequently, well written
> numismatic literature controls the focus of the mind to
> avoid imaginative
> fiction and provide clarity and precision in what a coin
> actually looks like. Then, there are those coin collectors
> that only look at the pictures and do not read the texts
> and enjoy books as eye candy. Then, there ate connoisseurs
> of books that enjoy every edition good and poor alike for
> comparisons etc. Among the so-called numismatic
> bibliomanics are those that only buy the best editions. So
> there are many and varied levels of numismatic book
> collecting.=20
>=20
> Now Sanford and Lorraine Durst have provided a wealth of
> titles accessible to researchers that would make research
> all the more difficult without them. In this capacity they
> have served the numismatic community very well. Moreover,
> they have published numerous catalogs of numismatic
> literature also valuable to the discerning researcher.
> Beyond that, they have their own research published which
> also has been very valuable to researchers regardless of
> how] one reviews them and in the long term they will be
> shown to have devoted their lives to serving the numismatic
> community as all the greats of our collective history.
>=20
> John
>=20
> John N. Lupia III
> New Jersey, USA; Beirut, Lebanon=20
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Roman-Catholic-News/
> God Bless Everyone
>=20
> --- On Fri, 6/27/08, palmers4@rcn.com
> <palmers4@rcn.com> wrote:
>=20
> > From: palmers4@rcn.com <palmers4@rcn.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] FW: NE XII in
> copper-BECKER
> > To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
> > Date: Friday, June 27, 2008, 11:54 AM
> > As evidenced by the surge in collecting Large Cents
> after
> > the publication
> > of Penny Whinsy( the original) and the surge in
> collecting
> > Connecticuts
> > after Taylor Sale, we can see the value of plates!
> For all
> > the good the
> > Dursts may have done, they will sadly be remembered
> for
> > those two
> > abomination reprints. David
> >=20
> > Original Message:
> > -----------------
> > From: James Spilman CNLF@Comcast.net
> > Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 10:20:09 -0500
> > To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] FW: NE XII in
> > copper-BECKER
> >=20
> >=20
> > All --
> >=20
> > The overall quality of those reprints has been --
> > consistently -- poor.=20
> > Plates are all but useless.
> >=20
> > Jim/CNLF
> >=20
> > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> >=20
> > palmers4@rcn.com wrote:
> > > Steve, They did the Connecticut reprint you
> speak of,
> > as well as the last
> > > Penny Whimsy reprint that everyone hated. David
> > >
> > >
> > > Original Message:
> > > -----------------
> > > From: Steve Frank taxi_steve929@yahoo.com
> > > Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 22:21:23 -0700 (PDT)
> > > To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: RE: [Colonial Numismatics] FW: NE XII
> in
> > copper-BECKER
> > >
> > >
> > > this one...the plates are pretty sharp....are
> they the
> > ones who printed
> > > that horrible connecticut book reprint??? the
> plates
> > were absolutely
> > > useless and the reason I never bought more than
> a
> > couple
> > > connecticuts....they're almost impossible
> for me
> > to attribute to begin
> > > with<s>
> > >
> > > --- On Thu, 6/26/08, palmers4@rcn.com
> > <palmers4@rcn.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > From: palmers4@rcn.com <palmers4@rcn.com>
> > > Subject: RE: [Colonial Numismatics] FW: NE XII
> in
> > copper-BECKER
> > > To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
> > > Date: Thursday, June 26, 2008, 1:22 AM
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > But due to the plates of many, they are almost
> > useless. David
> > >
> > > Original Message:
> > > ------------ -----
> > > From: Steve Frank taxi_steve929@ yahoo.com
> > > Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 22:09:27 -0700 (PDT)
> > > To: colonial-coins@ yahoogroups. com
> > > Subject: RE: [Colonial Numismatics] FW: NE XII
> in
> > copper-BECKER
> > >
> > > it's just the plate quality i was refering
> to...
> > the books are inexpensive
> > > and great for someone on a budget....
> > >
> > > --- On Wed, 6/25/08, John Lupia
> <jlupia2@yahoo.
> > com> wrote:
> > >
> > > From: John Lupia <jlupia2@yahoo. com>
> > > Subject: RE: [Colonial Numismatics] FW: NE XII
> in
> > copper-BECKER
> > > To: colonial-coins@ yahoogroups. com
> > > Date: Wednesday, June 25, 2008, 2:56 PM
> > >
> > > Hi Steve:
> > >
> > > Sanford and Lorraine Durst have done much to
> advance
> > the field of
> > > numismatics and have little or no recognition.=20
> > >
> > > John N. Lupia III
> > > New Jersey, USA; Beirut, Lebanon=20
> > > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Roman-
> Catholic- News/
> > > God Bless Everyone
> > >
> > > --- On Wed, 6/25/08, Steve Frank
> <taxi_steve929@
> > yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >=20
> > >> From: Steve Frank <taxi_steve929@
> yahoo.com>
> > >> Subject: RE: [Colonial Numismatics] FW: NE
> XII in
> > copper-BECKER
> > >> To: colonial-coins@ yahoogroups. com
> > >> Date: Wednesday, June 25, 2008, 2:51 PM
> > >> durst published "becker the
> > counterfeiter" by sir
> > >> groge f. hill in 1995...i have
> copy...plates are
> > typical of
> > >> a lower priced copy..not horrific
> though....
> > >>
> > >> --- On Wed, 6/25/08, John Lupia
> <jlupia2@yahoo.
> > com>
> > >> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> From: John Lupia <jlupia2@yahoo. com>
> > >> Subject: RE: [Colonial Numismatics] FW: NE
> XII in
> > >> copper-BECKER
> > >> To: colonial-coins@ yahoogroups. com
> > >> Date: Wednesday, June 25, 2008, 2:38 PM
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Clem,
> > >>
> > >> This one's for you!
> > >>
> > >> Becker, Karl Wilhelm (1772-1830), notorious
> forger
> > of
> > >> ancient and later coins, Mason, I, No. 6,
> > September (1867)
> > >> : 58c; American Journal of Numismatics,
> Whole No.
> > 93, July,
> > >> 1881; (Frossard article) Mason, H-III, No.
> 2,
> > September
> > >> (1881) : 42b; forger of coins at Frankfort,
> > Germany from
> > >> 1815-1825.=20
> > >> Bibliography :=20
> > >> Colin Narbeth, The Coin Collector=C2=A2s
> Encyclopedia
> > 1
> > >> Hill, Sir George F., Becker the
> Counterfeiter.
> > (London;
> > >> Spink and Son:1955). A reprint of the 1924
> and
> > 1925
> > >> editions
> > >>
> > >> John N. Lupia III
> > >> New Jersey, USA; Beirut, Lebanon=20
> > >> http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Roman-
> Catholic-
> > News/
> > >> God Bless Everyone
> > >>
> > >> --- On Wed, 6/25/08, Clement V. Schettino
> > >> <copperclem@ comcast. net> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>=20
> > >>> From: Clement V. Schettino
> <copperclem@
> > comcast.
> > >>>=20
> > >> net>
> > >>=20
> > >>> Subject: RE: [Colonial Numismatics] FW:
> NE XII
> > in
> > >>>=20
> > >> copper-BECKER
> > >>=20
> > >>> To: colonial-coins@ yahoogroups. com
> > >>> Date: Wednesday, June 25, 2008, 2:30 PM
> > >>> Hey Ray,
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> It's funny you should mention that.
> Lately
> > I have
> > >>>=20
> > >> taken
> > >>=20
> > >>> a fondness to the
> > >>> Becker copies. They are casts or
> electros with
> > a heavy
> > >>> plating. I find them
> > >>> quite well done. I managed to find two,
> the
> > >>>=20
> > >> Continental
> > >>=20
> > >>> Currency and the
> > >>> Fugio. One problem was I didn't
> know how
> > many
> > >>>=20
> > >> different
> > >>=20
> > >>> Colonial types he
> > >>> made or what constituted a
> > "complete" set. I
> > >>> tried to find out more about
> > >>> him and was bewildered why I
> couldn't find
> > much.
> > >>>=20
> > >> At
> > >>=20
> > >>> this point I attribute
> > >>> that to the fact that he was
> contemporary with
> > most of
> > >>>=20
> > >> us
> > >>=20
> > >>> so no one bothered
> > >>> to document his activities.
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> I plan to research this more, his
> activities
> > and time
> > >>> frames. Any help will
> > >>> be greatly appreciated (hint,
> hint.Mike).
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> AAR, right in the middle of my Becker
> search I
> > came
> > >>>=20
> > >> across
> > >>=20
> > >>> an eBay auction
> > >>> simply titled "cions" (yes,
> spelt
> > like
> > >>>=20
> > >> that). My
> > >>=20
> > >>> curiosity got the better of
> > >>> me and I opened it.WOW! Was I happy I
> did.
> > There
> > >>>=20
> > >> before me
> > >>=20
> > >>> was a "full set"
> > >>> of Becker copies! And in an original
> holder to
> > boot!
> > >>>=20
> > >> Not
> > >>=20
> > >>> that I even knew
> > >>> there was an "original
> holder". Long
> > story
> > >>>=20
> > >> short
> > >>=20
> > >>> I watched it for a week and
> > >>> nobody bid, I got it for the opener.
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> For now I'll just show some full
> photos,
> > no time
> > >>>=20
> > >> for
> > >>=20
> > >>> individual "coin"
> > >>> obv/rev close-ups yet. But after I find
> out a
> > bit more
> > >>>=20
> > >> I
> > >>=20
> > >>> hope to write
> > >>> something on the subject for C4, with
> more
> > pictures
> > >>>=20
> > >> and
> > >>=20
> > >>> specifications.
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> One thing I will say, because I think
> its
> > important is
> > >>>=20
> > >> the
> > >>=20
> > >>> Pillar Dollar is
> > >>> dated 1760, it has a crack in the right
> obv
> > field
> > >>> horizontally. It is the
> > >>> only specimen in my "set" NOT
> marked
> > Becker
> > >>>=20
> > >> on
> > >>=20
> > >>> the edge. I see it often on
> > >>> eBay being offered as a genuine! Be
> > warned.Beware.
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> BTW, note that this package was a Time
> > Magazine
> > >>>=20
> > >> offering,
> > >>=20
> > >>> "A Fourth of July
> > >>> memento" (that's specific ;-).
> I am
> > guessing
> > >>>=20
> > >> it
> > >>=20
> > >>> was a give a way with a
> > >>> subscription probably in 1976, the
> > Bicentennial Year.
> > >>> That's my guess. The
> > >>> set is not dated. Again I am looking
> for more
> > >>>=20
> > >> information,
> > >>=20
> > >>> such as does
> > >>> anyone have a set? Has anyone seen one
> before?
> > Does
> > >>>=20
> > >> anyone
> > >>=20
> > >>> know when it was
> > >>> distributed? Did EVERYONE throw
> their's
> > away!!!
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> Thanks,
> > >>>
> > >>> Clem
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> PS, I will reply with a few more
> images.
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> _____=20
> > >>>
> > >>> From: colonial-coins@ yahoogroups. com
> > >>> [mailto:colonial- coins@ yahoogroups.
> com]
> > >>> On Behalf Of Ray Williams
> > >>> Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 1:10 PM
> > >>> To: colonial-coins@ yahoogroups. com
> > >>> Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] FW:
> NE XII
> > in
> > >>>=20
> > >> copper
> > >>=20
> > >>>
> > >>> Clem,
> > >>>
> > >>> Thanks for posting. If anyone is
> looking for a
> > >>> worthwhile research
> > >>> project that would end in the
> publication of a
> > book,
> > >>> I'd enjoy having a copy
> > >>> of a book containing images and
> information
> > about
> > >>>=20
> > >> copies
> > >>=20
> > >>> and forgeries of
> > >>> colonial coins.=20
> > >>>
> > >>> Ray
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> From: Clement <mailto:copperclem@
> comcast.
> > net>
> > >>>=20
> > >> V.
> > >>=20
> > >>> Schettino=20
> > >>>
> > >>> Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 11:21 AM
> > >>>
> > >>> To: colonial-coins@
> > >>> <mailto:colonial- coins@
> yahoogroups.
> > com>
> > >>> yahoogroups. com=20
> > >>>
> > >>> Subject: [Colonial Numismatics] FW: NE
> XII in
> > copper
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> Hey all, see my post below. I tried to
> send
> > both
> > >>>=20
> > >> images at
> > >>=20
> > >>> once but they
> > >>> caught me ;-(
> > >>>
> > >>> Clem
> > >>>
> > >>> _____=20
> > >>>
> > >>> From: Clement V. Schettino
> [mailto:copperclem@
> > comcast.
> > >>>=20
> > >> net]=20
> > >>=20
> > >>> Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 11:15 AM
> > >>> To: 'colonial-coins@
> > >>> <mailto:'colonial- coins@
> yahoogroups.
> > >>>=20
> > >> com'>
> > >>=20
> > >>> yahoogroups. com'
> > >>> Subject: NE XII in copper
> > >>>
> > >>> Hey All,
> > >>>
> > >>> I thought I'd shoot and post some
> recent
> > >>>=20
> > >> acquisitions.
> > >>=20
> > >>> This first is what I thought was a very
> neat
> > copy of a
> > >>>=20
> > >> NE
> > >>=20
> > >>> Shilling struck in
> > >>> copper. I have made the following
> observations
> > so far.
> > >>>
> > >>> 1. It is struck in copper=20
> > >>> 2. The punches I have never seen
> before.=20
> > >>> 3. The right upright to the N is most
> unusual.
> >=20
> > >>> 4. The punch engravers scratch
> protruding from
> > the
> > >>>=20
> > >> back of
> > >>=20
> > >>> the middle
> > >>> crossbar of the E is typically seen on
> genuine
> > >>>=20
> > >> examples.=20
> > >>=20
> > >>> 5. The obv was punched I think 3 times.
> The
> > second (?)
> > >>> close to the
> > >>> final clear punch, the first rotated
> about 90
> > degrees
> > >>>=20
> > >> at
> > >>=20
> > >>> K3.=20
> > >>> 6. I have yet to weigh or measure the
> > diameter; it is
> > >>>=20
> > >> only
> > >>=20
> > >>> a copy after
> > >>> all.=20
> > >>>
> > >>> Has anyone seen this copy? Any
> comments?
> > >>>
> > >>> Clem
> > >>>=20
> > >
> > > ------------ --------- --------- ---------
> ---------
> > --------- -
> > > mail2web.com - Microsoft=C2=AE Exchange solutions
> from a
> > leading provider -
> > > http://link. mail2web. com/Business/ Exchange
> > >
> > >=20
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >=20
> > >
> > >
> >
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> > > mail2web.com - Microsoft=C2=AE Exchange solutions
> from a
> > leading provider -
> > > http://link.mail2web.com/Business/Exchange
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >=20
> >=20
> >=20
> >
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> > mail2web.com =E2=80=93 What can On Demand Business
> Solutions do
> > for you?
> > http://link.mail2web.com/Business/SharePoint
> >=20
> >=20
> >=20
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> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >=20
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> >
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