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- From njraywms@optonline.net Wed Nov 05 09:09:36 2008
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From: Ray Williams <njraywms@optonline.net>
Subject: Specific Gravity
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Marc,
The set up I have is very simple. Buell, If you're lurking out there=
... I remember you posting pictures of the SG set up along with directions=
and the formula to use. Could you find that post and repost it here? It =
is simple and works nicely.
Thanks
Ray=20=20
From: marc=20
Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 11:46 AM
To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com=20
Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] date help.
Ray,
I don't have a specific gravity test kit, do you where to get one? The coin=
rings, and weighs 399 grains which is pretty good. I think it is silverpla=
ted copper but don't want to hack into it to find out. <s> Some areas look =
like the plating is cracking off,but, at the same time, there is a some bla=
ck corrosive elements that look similar to the cracking. The kind of stuff=
you see on a sea salvaged coin.
Marc
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Ray Williams=20
To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com=20
Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 09:51
Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] date help.
Marc,
I look forward to it. What is the specific gravity compared to a gen=
uine 8 Reales?
Ray
From: marc=20
Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 10:43 AM
To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com=20
Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] date help.
Ray,
I bought a counterfeit 8reales from the Phillipines that I'm somewhat wor=
ried about. I couldn't resist the unusual date.Its hard to imagine counterf=
eiting a counterfeit so I'm still checking it out. I may write a little ite=
m about it for Syd.
Marc
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Ray Williams=20
To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com=20
Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 09:27
Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] date help.
Marc,
I'm with you. I am always cautious about overseas transactions, bu=
t I don't bid on ebay items from Asia.=20=20
Ray
From: marc=20
Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 10:15 AM
To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com=20
Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] date help.
John,
I hope this doesn't take place in the field of colonials yet the Chines=
e will counterfeit anything. I have heard from a knowledgeable collector th=
ey they produce counterfeit 8 reales of common dates,type pieces which are =
fairly inexpensive. Might not be long before they venture into colonials. I=
'm real leary of coins on ebay from Hong Kong,Indonesia, ect.
Marc
----- Original Message -----=20
From: John Lupia=20
To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com=20
Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2008 14:43
Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] date help.
John
I commend the work that has been done sorting through the vario=
us coins classifying them into groups and families. I tend to be a bit skep=
tical about many coins I have seen posted on this list. I usually do not ch=
ime in and voice my opinion when I feel it is a modern fake. I think I have=
only done that once before. I am keenly aware that some get very emotional=
when they hear a comment that the piece may not be an authentic period cou=
nterfeit but modern since time, money, fascination (the emotive side of col=
lecting) and everything you think you know up to this point has been invest=
ed. I suspect there are far more modern forgeries in the field of colonial =
coins than most on this list would be willing to accept. By modern fake I m=
ean someone in the late 19th century up to the present time who deliberatel=
y made a fake to dupe a collector and make money off of them. This sort of =
thing is ubiquitous in numismatics and is evidenced in every specialty. I j=
ust do not see any effort on the part of the colonial collectors to make th=
is sort of consideration, and in this respect I am a lone wolf (pun on name=
intended)!
John N. Lupia III
New Jersey, USA; Beirut, Lebanon=20
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Roman-Catholic-News/
God Bless Everyone
--- On Tue, 11/4/08, John Louis <johnwlouis@comcast.net> wrote:
From: John Louis <johnwlouis@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] date help.
To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, November 4, 2008, 3:01 PM
John,
Also, yes when dealing with these types of coins, I believe t=
he lines between the 2 series become skewed.
A number of the same people may have been involved with creat=
ing both. I believe they were.
Some of the same dies or hubs as well as punches and central =
devices were used at least in part in both series.
But for all practical and presentation purposes to the genera=
l coin collecting public, I am working along with others to divide contempo=
rary counterfeits into groups and families. This is a worthwhile effort tha=
t at times becomes a slow and arduous process.
However, we are moving forward despite our own inadequecies.
jwl
----- Original Message -----=20
From: John Lupia=20
To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com=20
Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2008 2:20 PM
Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] date help.
John
I think we are coming very close here to a mutual agr=
eement. However, I am inclined to think that it is possible that what we mi=
ght evaluate as a CC could also be extended into the class of evasions. Why=
? Because there is no way we can know what the engraver intended, what he w=
as thinking, etc. Numismatists are not Breen-psychics who get there info fr=
om a magic crystal ball, or demon-spirit friend who whispers untold secrets=
of history into our ears. We can only make logical deductions based on evi=
dence that is carefully scrutinized for material supportable facts. If the =
forger who made Clem's piece deliberately made a malformed B in order to av=
oid prosecution, then it is an evasive. If, however, he did this because he=
was a poorly skilled engraver incapable or incompetent then it is merely a=
CC. Which of these is correct we shall probably never know with any degree=
of certainty. My guess, and it is only a guess, is that in order to fit mo=
re neatly into the class of evasives a piece should demonstrate a more deli=
berate deviation from regal pieces than this one does. But, then again, we =
do not know what this guy was thinking, do we?=20
John N. Lupia III
New Jersey, USA; Beirut, Lebanon=20
http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Roman- Catholic- News=
/
God Bless Everyone
--- On Tue, 11/4/08, John Louis <johnwlouis@comcast. =
net> wrote:
From: John Louis <johnwlouis@comcast. net>
Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] date help.
To: colonial-coins@ yahoogroups. com
Date: Tuesday, November 4, 2008, 2:06 PM
John,
What I here you saying now is that you were merely =
speaking in general terms of what an "evasion" is and what the general inte=
nded purposes of these types of coins were. And I think what you are trying=
to convey is that all of these types of coins are evasive in some respect =
or another. If that is the case, then I agree.
I thought your original post inferred that there w=
as a direct link (via a certain botched letter punch) between the known cou=
nterfeit series and the known evasion series. In that case, I said that I k=
new of none and that I was interested is seeing your evidence of such a lin=
k if you had one. And more specifically I thought you implied that Clem's c=
oin is an evasion because of the botched punch.
We have what we consider a specific evasion series =
and a specific contemporary counterfeit series. I was merely stating that C=
lem's coin is not considered an evasion but a contemporary counterfeit.=20
Let me also say that yes, there are several theorie=
s about who made these coins and why. Byron Weston wrote an article in the =
Colonial Newsletter (CNL-111) where he linked the 2 series together and pro=
vided possible explanations and showed examples of crossover pieces as evid=
ence to support his claims. This I understand.=20
What I did not understand in your original post is =
how or why you were calling Clem's coin an evasion based on 1 botched lette=
r punch. Clem's coin is a contemporary counterfeit, not an evasion.
jwl
PS I also posted photos to support my assertion th=
at Clem's coin belongs to the Small Date 73 Family of Counterfeit Halfpence=
.
----- Original Message -----=20
From: John Lupia=20
To: colonial-coins@ yahoogroups. com=20
Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2008 1:20 PM
Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] date help.
Hi John
I do not quite understand your comment "but=
at this time there is no known evidence to support it."
By definition of what is an evasive piece i=
s that a forger is merely mimicking legal specie but deliberately not repli=
cating it as a counterfeit of regal money. The myriad of deviations forgers=
made from regal pieces were all deliberate so that they could not be in vi=
olation of the law. Theirs is a sort of play money made in a similar way th=
at modern toy manufacturers make play money with a different portrait or va=
ried legend that in no way could be mistaken for the real thing. However, t=
he analogy is lost since modern play money is not as similar in media as 18=
th century evasives were. Evasives could be mistaken for real legal specie =
if the holder of these coins was illiterate and not observant, or anyone no=
t scrutinizing the coin carefully might be innocently passing the coin with=
out knowing it.
John N. Lupia III
New Jersey, USA; Beirut, Lebanon=20
http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Roman- Cath=
olic- News/
God Bless Everyone
--- On Tue, 11/4/08, John Louis <johnwlouis=
@comcast. net> wrote:
From: John Louis <johnwlouis@comcast. net>
Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] date he=
lp.
To: colonial-coins@ yahoogroups. com
Date: Tuesday, November 4, 2008, 11:04 AM
John,
I have never heard of anyone connecting the=
deliberate or inadvertent letter punch mishaps of the contemporary counter=
feit series to the evasion series. Anything is possible and your theory cou=
ld be plausible, but at this time there is no known evidence to support it.=
If you have such evidence, please tell us your findings.
Clems coin is not classified as an evasion =
nor does it belong to the evasion series as we know it.
Although it is not an exact match, the obve=
rse of his coin shares similar characteristics to a known family of the con=
temporary counterfeit series that we are currently calling Small Date 73.
John Louis
----- Original Message -----=20
From: John Lupia=20
To: colonial-coins@ yahoogroups. com=20
Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2008 10:32 AM
Subject: RE: [Colonial Numismatics] date he=
lp.
Mike
Good observation on lot 204 of the Minot Sa=
le drawing the possible parallel to Clem's specimen. I tend to think that a=
forger that cannot make a letter of the calligraphic or typographic type o=
f the period is not of that period but later. But, I am also open to the po=
ssibility that it might have been deliberate by a forger looking for a loop=
hole in the law to evade being tried and found guilty of counterfeiting sin=
ce he is not replicating the regal coinage, which is the motive for all eva=
sion pieces. So, if this is a CC then I would classify it as an evasion.=20
John
John N. Lupia III
New Jersey, USA; Beirut, Lebanon=20
http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Roman- Cath=
olic- News/
God Bless Everyone
--- On Tue, 11/4/08, Mike Reynolds <ageless=
ness@ hotmail.com> wrote:
> From: Mike Reynolds <agelessness@ hotmail=
.com>
> Subject: RE: [Colonial Numismatics] date =
help.
> To: colonial-coins@ yahoogroups. com
> Date: Tuesday, November 4, 2008, 10:02 AM
> Clem,
> That's a funky looking B, almost looks an=
A or an R.
> The Minot Sale had a=20
> 1773 that they tagged as a RRITANNIA, lot=
204.
>=20
> Mike
>=20
>=20
> >From: "Clement V. Schettino"
> <copperclem@comcast. net>
> >Reply-To: colonial-coins@ yahoogroups. c=
om
> >To: <colonial-coins@ yahoogroups. com>
> >Subject: [Colonial Numismatics] date hel=
p.
> >Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 21:24:52 -0500
> >
> >Hey all,
> >
> >
> >
> >Does anyone have this variety with a cle=
ar date?
> >
> >
> >
> >Comments on the "hair style" are welcome=
d
> too.
> >
> >
> >
> >Thanks,
> >
> >Clem
> >
>=20
>=20
> ><< 177-obv-comp. JPG >>
>=20
>=20
> ><< 177-rev-comp. JPG >>
>=20
>=20
>=20
> ------------ --------- --------- ------
>=20
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>=20
>=20
>=20
=
=20
=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20
=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20
=20
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Marc,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> <FONT face=Arial size=2>The set up I have is very
simple. Buell,</FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2> If
you're lurking out there... I remember you posting pictures of the SG set
up along with directions and the formula to use. Could you find that post
and repost it here? It is simple and works nicely.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Thanks</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Ray </FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt Tahoma">
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #f5f5f5">
<DIV style="font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=marcm@sunflower.com
href="mailto:marcm@sunflower.com">marc</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, November 05, 2008 11:46 AM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A
title="mailto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
CTRL + Click to follow link"
href="mailto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com">colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com</A>
</DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Colonial Numismatics] date help.</DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV id=ygrp-text>
<P>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Ray,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I don't have a specific gravity test kit, do you
where to get one? The coin rings, and weighs 399 grains which is pretty good. I
think it is silverplated copper but don't want to hack into it to find out.
<s> Some areas look like the plating is cracking off,but, at the same
time, there is a some black corrosive elements that look similar to the
cracking. The kind of stuff you see on a sea salvaged coin.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Marc</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial"><B>From:</B> <A
title=njraywms@optonline.net href="mailto:njraywms@optonline.net">Ray
Williams</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
href="mailto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com">colonial-coins@<WBR>yahoogroups.<WBR>com</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, November 05, 2008
09:51</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Colonial Numismatics] date
help.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV id=ygrp-text>
<P>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Marc,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> <FONT face=Arial size=2>I look forward to
it. What is the specific gravity compared to a genuine 8
Reales?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Ray</FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt Tahoma">
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #f5f5f5">
<DIV><B>From:</B> <A title=marcm@sunflower.com
href="mailto:marcm@sunflower.com">marc</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, November 05, 2008 10:43 AM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A
title="mailto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
CTRL + Click to follow link"
href="mailto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com">colonial-coins@<WBR>yahoogroups.<WBR>com</A>
</DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Colonial Numismatics] date help.</DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV id=ygrp-text>
<P>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Ray,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I bought a counterfeit 8reales from the
Phillipines that I'm somewhat worried about. I couldn't resist the unusual
date.Its hard to imagine counterfeiting a counterfeit so I'm still checking it
out. I may write a little item about it for Syd.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Marc</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial"><B>From:</B> <A
title=njraywms@optonline.net href="mailto:njraywms@optonline.net">Ray
Williams</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
href="mailto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com">colonial-coins@<WBR>yahoogroups.<WBR>com</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, November 05, 2008
09:27</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Colonial Numismatics]
date help.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV id=ygrp-text>
<P>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Marc,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> <FONT face=Arial size=2>I'm with you. I
am always cautious about overseas transactions, but I don't bid on ebay
items from Asia. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Ray</FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt Tahoma">
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #f5f5f5">
<DIV><B>From:</B> <A title=marcm@sunflower.com
href="mailto:marcm@sunflower.com">marc</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, November 05, 2008 10:15 AM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
href="mailto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com">colonial-coins@<WBR>yahoogroups.<WBR>com</A>
</DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Colonial Numismatics] date help.</DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV id=ygrp-text>
<P>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>John,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I hope this doesn't take place in the field of
colonials yet the Chinese will counterfeit anything. I have heard from
a knowledgeable collector they they produce counterfeit 8 reales of common
dates,type pieces which are fairly inexpensive. Might not be long before
they venture into colonials. I'm real leary of coins on ebay from Hong
Kong,Indonesia, ect.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Marc</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial"><B>From:</B> <A
title=jlupia2@yahoo.com href="mailto:jlupia2@yahoo.com">John Lupia</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
href="mailto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com">colonial-coins@<WBR>yahoogroups.<WBR>com</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, November 04, 2008
14:43</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Colonial Numismatics]
date help.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV id=ygrp-text>
<P>
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 border=0>
<TBODY>
<TR>
<TD vAlign=top>John<BR><BR>I commend the work that has been done
sorting through the various coins classifying them into groups and
families. I tend to be a bit skeptical about many coins I have seen
posted on this list. I usually do not chime in and voice my opinion
when I feel it is a modern fake. I think I have only done that once
before. I am keenly aware that some get very emotional when they
hear a comment that the piece may not be an authentic period
counterfeit but modern si
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