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From: Randy Clark <centsitive@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Indian counterfeiters? WAS: Important NJ
Discovery - Botched V Punch
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Hi Oliver ... your knowledge clearly far exceeds my own.
Is it possible some tribes retained an identity but chose to
adopt Anglo social/economic influences ? I suspect there
was a spectrum of responses to the French & English presence,
from confrontational to assimilation (and points in between) ...
depending on where each tribe perceived their threats coming
from. Some may have considered adopting Anglo ways as
greater protection from large/dominant Indian tribes. My
understanding of the cultural landscape prior to European
influence was quite combative, due to some aggressive tribe
behaviors. Smaller tribes needed to ally where the greatest
protections were found.
In terms of equipment, perhaps consider French or English
investment in local mahem - as a source of technology or raw
material. Here's your cartload of rifles, powder, rum ... and a
coining press. Go have fun ...
On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 9:20 AM, Oliver D. Hoover <
oliver.hoover@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
>
> The reason I ask is that I have been on and off working on a chapter about
> money and Native Americans for my study of the French and Indian Wars
> period. From such evidence as I have been able to assemble, it looks like
> most Indians (even those with long close contacts with the French and
> Anglo-Americans) still had very little use for coins (as money) well into
> the 1750s. While they might appreciate them as objects suitable for personal
> adornment (i.e. pierced for necklaces), they seem not to have understood
> their use in European-style commerce which was completely alien to most
> traditional native modes of exchange. Bearing this in mind, I think it is
> unlikely that by the1780s many Indians had become so well-attuned to
> European monetary ways that (assuming a copper supply) they could have set
> up counterfeiting operations. Besides, how would they have obtained screw
> presses?
> Oliver
>
> On 23-Sep-09, at 11:38 AM, Randy Clark wrote:
>
>
>
> LOL !
>
> Well, I am ashamed to say I did not consider it as a serious
> consideration, so narrow mindedness is always at hand. It
> depends on what we all think it takes to get something up
> and running (equipment wise) ... and the availability of raw
> materials. The raw materials, at least in my research, was
> the biggest constraint on state copper production. Many
> of the state mints melted brass/bronze/copper ... which
> the native Americans were likely in short supply of. The
> alternatives of reusing existing host coins, smelting local ore
> or stealing federal copper ... native Americans would also
> likely have been at a disadvantage getting access to. Only
> Americans were allowed to steal federal copper.
>
>
> On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 8:27 AM, Oliver D. Hoover <
> oliver.hoover@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> It always comes down to blaming the Canadians, doesn't it? I'm going to
>> remember you said that Randy, after the conquest is complete.
>> I assume that you are also joking about the American Indian angle. Right?
>>
>> Oliver
>>
>> On 23-Sep-09, at 11:18 AM, Randy Clark wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Another interesting idea. But a thread I'd like to see pursued is
>> clandestine minting by regional American Indian tribes. Think
>> about it. Who had a bigger "axe" to grind than the indigienous
>> population ? Since federal land had not yet been allocated to
>> casinos, perhaps enterprising tribes made state colonials and
>> dumped them on the local market. And, since England was
>> responsible for much of their troubles, they could have made
>> George II or III coppers for distribution offshore as well.
>>
>> Or maybe it was ... ssshhh ... the Canadians.
>>
>> The point is ... all of this is like Monty Python's "Argument Clinic".
>> It's all contradiction to some, and good fun for others, but there is
>> not a lot of evidence anywhere to make hard conclusions about
>> "who done it". Yet.
>>
>> On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 8:02 AM, John Lupia <jlupia2@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Randy
>>>
>>> Besides State Mints how about Mexican Mints. After all, it has been
>>> proposed they made Lion Dollars. Why not state coppers as well. ;-)
>>>
>>> John N. Lupia III
>>> New Jersey, USA; Beirut, Lebanon
>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Roman-Catholic-News/
>>> God Bless Everyone
>>>
>>> --- On *Wed, 9/23/09, Randy Clark <centsitive@gmail.com>* wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> From: Randy Clark <centsitive@gmail.com>
>>> Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Important NJ Discovery - Botched V
>>> Punch
>>> To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
>>> Date: Wednesday, September 23, 2009, 10:45 AM
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Wow.
>>>
>>> The list of British invasions gets bigger yet. In addition to the
>>> Revolution, 1812 and the Beatles,
>>> we now were clandestinely invaded with colonial state coppers. Crude
>>> ones, no less ... which
>>> made them much different than the local colonial state coppers. An
>>> interesting idea, but hard
>>> to see where the economics would make any freaking sense to off shore
>>> makers, who would
>>> have to pay shipping costs to dump cheap coppers into a mark crowded with
>>> cheap coppers.
>>> But hey ... who said counterfeiter had brains ?
>>>
>>> On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 7:37 AM, Byron <bkw11@psu.edu<http://mc/compose?to=bkw11@psu.edu>
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Steve,
>>>>
>>>> I predict that one day American "Colonial" collectors will have to wrap
>>>> their minds around the fact that a few of those crude NJ and CT coppers were
>>>> actually imports from Great Britain or Ireland, and not the product of some
>>>> clandestine American mint.
>>>>
>>>> Byron
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --- In colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com<http://mc/compose?to=colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com>,
>>>> Steve Frank <taxi_steve929@...> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > Didn't Conder tokens make their way here? It could have been the other
>>>> way around too. I agree with Byron's thoughts on most collectors wanting to
>>>> believe everything they own is "Made in the USA"<s>, but even though the
>>>> probabilities show this coin as being a British product, without proof, the
>>>> owners can imagine whatever they wish.....and usually do.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > ________________________________
>>>> > From: Ray Williams <njraywms@...>
>>>> > To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com<http://mc/compose?to=colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com>
>>>> > Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 9:54:29 AM
>>>> > Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Important NJ Discovery - Botched V
>>>> Punch
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > Oliver,
>>>> > Because the Auctori Plebis reverse is muled with other Conder
>>>> Tokens, it appears that the design of the token was imitated from that of a
>>>> CT Copper and struck in England.
>>>> > Ray
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > From: Oliver D. Hoover
>>>> > Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 9:06 AM
>>>> > To: colonial-coins@ yahoogroups. com
>>>> > Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Important NJ Discovery - Botched V
>>>> Punch
>>>> >
>>>> > Randy,
>>>> >
>>>> > I was wondering the same thing about the possible relationship between
>>>> the Auctori Plebis pieces and the CT series.
>>>> >
>>>> > Oliver
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > On 22-Sep-09, at 5:24 PM, Randy Clark wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > >
>>>> > >
>>>> > >Byron ... is there now evidence Auctori Plebis is foreign made ? It
>>>> could equally be
>>>> > >considered a colonial issue in the absence of contrary evidence. In
>>>> fact, I was
>>>> > >looking closely at them for a while to see if it could have been a CT
>>>> product,
>>>> > >born of boredom or an attempt to skirt an ever tightening noose of
>>>> local coinage
>>>> > >restrictions. I am curious what others have learned to support
>>>> foreign minting ...
>>>> > >
>>>> > >
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Hi Oliver ... your knowledge clearly far exceeds my own. <br><br>Is it poss=
ible some tribes retained an identity but chose to <br>adopt Anglo social/=
economic influences ? I suspect there<br>was a spectrum of responses to the=
French & English presence,<br>
from confrontational to assimilation (and points in between) ...<br>dependi=
ng on where each tribe perceived their threats coming<br>from. Some may hav=
e considered adopting Anglo ways as<br>greater protection from large/domina=
nt Indian tribes. My<br>
understanding of the cultural landscape prior to European<br>influence was =
quite combative, due to some aggressive tribe<br>behaviors. Smaller tribes =
needed to ally where the greatest<br>protections were found. <br><br>In ter=
ms of equipment, perhaps consider French or English<br>
investment in local mahem - as a source of technology or raw<br>material. H=
ere's your cartload of rifles, powder, rum ... and a<br>coining press. =
Go have fun ...<br><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 =
at 9:20 AM, Oliver D. Hoover <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:oliver=
.hoover@sympatico.ca">oliver.hoover@sympatico.ca</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, =
204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20
<div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word;">
<br><br>
The reason I ask is that I have been on and off working on =A0a chapter abo=
ut money and Native Americans =A0for my study of the French and Indian Wars=
period. From such evidence as I have been able to assemble, it looks like =
most Indians (even those with long close contacts with the French and Anglo=
-Americans) still had very little use for coins (as money) well into the 17=
50s. While they might appreciate them as objects suitable for personal ador=
nment (i.e. pierced for necklaces), they seem not to have understood their =
use in European-style commerce which was completely alien to most tradition=
al native modes of exchange. Bearing this in mind, I think it is unlikely t=
hat by the1780s many Indians had become so well-attuned to European monetar=
y ways that (assuming a copper supply) they could have set up counterfeitin=
g operations. Besides, how would they have obtained screw presses?=A0<div>
<br></div><div>Oliver<br><div>=A0<br><div><div>On 23-Sep-09, at 11:38 AM, R=
andy Clark wrote:</div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span style=3D"border-=
collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size:=
medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; let=
ter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-indent: 0px; text-transform:=
none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;"><br>
<br>LOL !<br><br>Well, I am ashamed to say I did not consider it as a serio=
us<br>consideration, so narrow mindedness is always at hand. It<br>depends =
on what we all think it takes to get something up<br>and running (equipment=
wise) ... and the availability of raw<br>
materials. The raw materials, at least in my research, was<br>the biggest c=
onstraint on state copper production. Many<br>of the state mints melted bra=
ss/bronze/copper ... which<br>the native Americans were likely in short sup=
ply of. The<br>
alternatives of reusing existing host coins, smelting local ore<br>or steal=
ing federal copper ... native Americans would also<br>likely have been at a=
disadvantage getting access to. Only<br>Americans were allowed to steal fe=
deral copper.<br>
<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 8:27 AM, Oliver =
D. Hoover<span>=A0</span><span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:oliver.hoo=
ver@sympatico.ca" target=3D"_blank">oliver.hoover@sympatico.ca</a>></spa=
n><span>=A0</span>wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, =
204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div style=3D"wor=
d-wrap: break-word;"><br><br>It always comes down to blaming the Canadians,=
doesn't it? =A0I'm going to remember you said that Randy, after th=
e conquest is complete.<div>
<br></div><div>I assume that you are also joking about the American Indian =
angle. Right?</div><div><br></div><font color=3D"#888888"><div>Oliver</div>=
</font><div><div></div><div><div><br><div><div>On 23-Sep-09, at 11:18 AM, R=
andy Clark wrote:</div>
<br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span style=3D"border-collapse: separate; col=
or: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; font-style: no=
rmal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; li=
ne-height: normal; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: nor=
mal; word-spacing: 0px;"><br>
<br>Another interesting idea. But a thread I'd like to see pursued is<b=
r>clandestine minting by regional American Indian tribes. Think<br>about it=
. Who had a bigger "axe" to grind than the indigienous<br>populat=
ion ? Since federal land had not yet been allocated to<br>
casinos, perhaps enterprising tribes made state colonials and<span>=A0</spa=
n><br>dumped them on the local market. And, since England was<br>responsibl=
e for much of their troubles, they could have made<span>=A0</span><br>Georg=
e II or III coppers for distribution offshore as well.<br>
<br>Or maybe it was ... ssshhh ... the Canadians.<span>=A0</span><br><br>Th=
e point is ... all of this is like Monty Python's "Argument Clinic=
".<br>It's all contradiction to some, and good fun for others, but=
there is<br>
not a lot of evidence anywhere to make hard conclusions about<br>"who =
done it". Yet.<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 =
at 8:02 AM, John Lupia<span>=A0</span><span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mail=
to:jlupia2@yahoo.com" target=3D"_blank">jlupia2@yahoo.com</a>></span><sp=
an>=A0</span>wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, =
204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div><br><br><tab=
le border=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"0"><tbody><tr><td style=3D=
"font-family: inherit; font-style: inherit; font-variant: inherit; font-wei=
ght: inherit; font-size: inherit; line-height: inherit; font-stretch: inher=
it;" valign=3D"top">
Randy<br><br>Besides State Mints how about Mexican Mints. After all, it has=
been proposed they made Lion Dollars. Why not state coppers as well. ;-)<b=
r><br>John N. Lupia III<br>New Jersey, USA; Beirut, Lebanon<span>=A0</span>=
<br>
<a href=3D"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Roman-Catholic-News/" target=3D"_b=
lank">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Roman-Catholic-News/</a><br>God Bless E=
veryone<br><br>--- On<span>=A0</span><b>Wed, 9/23/09, Randy Clark<span>=A0<=
/span><i><<a href=3D"mailto:centsitive@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">cent=
sitive@gmail.com</a>></i></b><span>=A0</span>wrote:<br>
<blockquote style=3D"border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: =
5px; padding-left: 5px;"><br>From: Randy Clark <<a href=3D"mailto:centsi=
tive@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">centsitive@gmail.com</a>><div><br>Subj=
ect: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Important NJ Discovery - Botched V Punch<br=
>
</div><div>To:<span>=A0</span><a href=3D"mailto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.=
com" target=3D"_blank">colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com</a><br></div>Date: We=
dnesday, September 23, 2009, 10:45 AM<div><div></div><div><br><br><div><br>=
<br>
Wow.<span>=A0</span><br><br>The list of British invasions gets bigger yet. =
In addition to the Revolution, 1812 and the Beatles,<br>we now were clandes=
tinely invaded with colonial state coppers. Crude ones, no less ... which<b=
r>
made them much different than the local colonial state coppers. An interest=
ing idea, but hard<br>to see where the economics would make any freaking se=
nse to off shore makers, who would<br>have to pay shipping costs to dump ch=
eap coppers into a mark crowded with cheap coppers.<br>
But hey ... who said counterfeiter had brains ?<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_=
quote">On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 7:37 AM, Byron<span>=A0</span><span dir=3D"l=
tr"><<a rel=3D"nofollow" href=3D"http://mc/compose?to=3Dbkw11@psu.edu" t=
arget=3D"_blank">bkw11@psu.edu</a>></span><span>=A0</span>wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, =
204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">Hi Steve,<br><br>=
I predict that one day American "Colonial" collectors will have t=
o wrap their minds around the fact that a few of those crude NJ and CT copp=
ers were actually imports from Great Britain or Ireland, and not the produc=
t of some clandestine American mint.<br>
<br>Byron<br><br><br><div><br>--- In<span>=A0</span><a rel=3D"nofollow" hre=
f=3D"http://mc/compose?to=3Dcolonial-coins@yahoogroups.com" target=3D"_blan=
k">colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com</a>, Steve Frank <taxi_steve929@...>=
; wrote:<br>
><br></div><div>> Didn't Conder tokens make their way here? It co=
uld have been the other way around too. I agree with Byron's thoughts o=
n most collectors wanting to believe everything they own is "Made in t=
he USA"<s>, but even though the probabilities show this coin as =
being a British product, without proof, the owners can imagine whatever the=
y wish.....and usually do.<br>
><br>><br>><br>><br>> ________________________________<br></=
div>> From: Ray Williams <njraywms@...><br><div>> To:<span>=A0<=
/span><a rel=3D"nofollow" href=3D"http://mc/compose?to=3Dcolonial-coins@yah=
oogroups.com" target=3D"_blank">colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com</a><br>
> Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 9:54:29 AM<br>> Subject: Re: [C=
olonial Numismatics] Important NJ Discovery - Botched V Punch<br>><br>&g=
t; =A0<br>> Oliver,<br>> =A0=A0=A0=A0Because the Auctori Plebis rever=
se is muled with other Conder Tokens, it appears that the design of the tok=
en was imitated from that of a CT Copper and struck in England.=A0<br>
> Ray<br>><br>><br>> From: Oliver D. Hoover<br>> Sent: Wedne=
sday, September 23, 2009 9:06 AM<br>> To: colonial-coins@ yahoogroups. c=
om<br>> Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Important NJ Discovery - Bot=
ched V Punch<br>
> =A0<br>> Randy,<br>><br>> I was wondering the same thing abou=
t the possible relationship between the Auctori Plebis pieces and the CT se=
ries.<br>><br>> Oliver<br>><br>><br>> On 22-Sep-09, at 5:24 =
PM, Randy Clark wrote:<br>
><br>><br>> ><br>> ><br>> >Byron ... is there now e=
vidence Auctori Plebis is foreign made ? It could equally be<br>> >co=
nsidered a colonial issue in the absence of contrary evidence. In fact, I w=
as<br>
> >looking closely at them for a while to see if it could have been a=
CT product,<br>> >born of boredom or an attempt to skirt an ever tig=
htening noose of local coinage<br>> >restrictions. I am curious what =
others have learned to support foreign minting ...<br>
> ><br>> ><br>><br><br><br><br><br></div><div>--------------=
----------------------<br><br>Yahoo! Groups Links<br><br><*> To visit=
your group on the web, go to:<br>=A0 =A0<a rel=3D"nofollow" href=3D"http:/=
/groups.yahoo.com/group/colonial-coins/" target=3D"_blank">http://groups.ya=
hoo.com/group/colonial-coins/</a><br>
<br></div><*> Your email settings:<br>=A0 =A0Individual Email | Tradi=
tional<br><div><div></div><div><br><*> To change settings online go t=
o:<br>=A0 =A0<a rel=3D"nofollow" href=3D"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/colo=
nial-coins/join" target=3D"_blank">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/colonial-c=
oins/join</a><br>
=A0 =A0(Yahoo! ID required)<br><br><*> To change settings via email:<=
br>=A0 =A0mailto:<a rel=3D"nofollow" href=3D"http://mc/compose?to=3Dcolonia=
l-coins-digest@yahoogroups.com" target=3D"_blank">colonial-coins-digest@yah=
oogroups.com</a><br>
=A0 =A0mailto:<a rel=3D"nofollow" href=3D"http://mc/compose?to=3Dcolonial-c=
oins-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com" target=3D"_blank">colonial-coins-fullfea=
tured@yahoogroups.com</a><br><br><*> To unsubscribe from this group, =
send an email to:<br>
=A0 =A0<a rel=3D"nofollow" href=3D"http://mc/compose?to=3Dcolonial-coins-un=
subscribe@yahoogroups.com" target=3D"_blank">colonial-coins-unsubscribe@yah=
oogroups.com</a><br><br><*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:<=
br>=A0 =A0<a rel=3D"nofollow" href=3D"http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/</a><br>
<br></div></div></blockquote></div><br><br><br><div style=3D"color: white; =
clear: both;"></div></div></div></div></blockquote></td></tr></tbody></tabl=
e><br><br><br><div width=3D"1" style=3D"color: white; clear: both;"></div><=
/div>
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r: both;"></div></span></blockquote></div><br></div><br><br><div width=3D"1=
" style=3D"color: white; clear: both;"></div></div></div></div></blockquote=
></div>
<br><br><br><div width=3D"1" style=3D"color: white; clear: both;"></div></s=
pan></blockquote></div><br></div></div>
<br>
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=20=20=20=20
<br>
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