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From: "marc" <marcm@sunflower.com>
Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Indian counterfeiters? WAS: Important NJ Discovery - Botched V Punch
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Oliver,
There are a few references to conquered Indian tribes counterfeiting their =
own Spanish coins. It is tough to image where they got the punches.
I wrote a little article concerning some of this for the C4 journal but I =
think it got sidelined, or wasn't good enough<s>
The cob guy, Mendel Sewell (?) claimed thye could smelt their own silver.
Marc
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Oliver D. Hoover=20
To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com=20
Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 10:20
Subject: [Colonial Numismatics] Indian counterfeiters? WAS: Important NJ =
Discovery - Botched V Punch
The reason I ask is that I have been on and off working on a chapter a=
bout money and Native Americans for my study of the French and Indian Wars=
period. From such evidence as I have been able to assemble, it looks like =
most Indians (even those with long close contacts with the French and Anglo=
-Americans) still had very little use for coins (as money) well into the 17=
50s. While they might appreciate them as objects suitable for personal ador=
nment (i.e. pierced for necklaces), they seem not to have understood their =
use in European-style commerce which was completely alien to most tradition=
al native modes of exchange. Bearing this in mind, I think it is unlikely t=
hat by the1780s many Indians had become so well-attuned to European monetar=
y ways that (assuming a copper supply) they could have set up counterfeitin=
g operations. Besides, how would they have obtained screw presses?=20
Oliver
On 23-Sep-09, at 11:38 AM, Rand! y Clark wrote:
LOL !
Well, I am ashamed to say I did not consider it as a serious
consideration, so narrow mindedness is always at hand. It
depends on what we all think it takes to get something up
and running (equipment wise) ... and the availability of raw
materials. The raw materials, at least in my research, was
the biggest constraint on state copper production. Many
of the state mints melted brass/bronze/copper ... which
the native Americans were likely in short supply of. The
alternatives of reusing existing host coins, smelting local ore
or stealing federal copper ... native Americans would also
likely have been ! at a disadvantage getting access to. Only
Americans were allowed to steal federal copper.
On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 8:27 AM, Oliver D. Hoover <oliver.hoover@sympat=
ico.ca> wrote:
It always comes down to blaming the Canadians, doesn't it? I'm going=
to remember you said that Randy, after the conquest is complete.
I assume that you are also joking about the American Indian angle. Ri=
ght?
Oliver
On 23-Sep-09, at 11:18 AM, Randy Clark wrote:
Another interesting idea. But a thread I'd like to see pursued is
clandestine minting by regional American Indian tribes. Think
about it. Who had a bigger "axe" to grind than the indigienous
population ? Since federal land had not yet been allocated to
casinos, perhaps enterprising tribes made state colonials and=20
dumped them on the local market. And, since England was
responsible for much of their troubles, they could have made=20
George II or III coppers for distribution offshore as well.
Or maybe it was ... ssshhh ... the Canadians.=20
The point is ... all of this is like Monty Python's "Argument Clini=
c".
It's all contradiction to some, and good fun for others, but there =
is
not a lot of evidence anywhere to make hard conclusions about
"who! done it". Yet.
On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 a t 8:02 AM, John Lupia <jlupia2@yahoo.com> wr=
ote:
Randy
Besides State Mints how about Mexican Mints. After all, it =
has been proposed they made Lion Dollars. Why not state coppers as well. ;-=
)
John N. Lupia III
New Jersey, USA; Beirut, Lebanon=20
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Roman-Catholic-News/
God Bless Everyone
--- On Wed, 9/23/09, Randy! Clark <centsitive@gmail.com> wr=
ote:
From: Randy Clark <centsitive@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Important NJ Discover=
y - Botched V Punch
To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, September 23, 2009, 10:45 AM
Wow.=20
The list of British invasions gets bigger yet. In additio=
n to the Revolution, 1812 and the Beatles,
we now were clandestinely invaded with colonial state cop=
pers. Crude ones, no less ... which
made them much different than the local colonial state co=
! ppers. An interesting idea, but hard
to see where the economics wou ld make any freaking sense=
to off shore makers, who would
have to pay shipping costs to dump cheap coppers into a m=
ark crowded with cheap coppers.
But hey ... who said counterfeiter had brains ?
On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 7:37 AM, Byron <bkw11@psu.edu> wr=
ote:
Hi Steve,
I predict that one day American "Colonial" collectors w=
ill have to wrap their minds around the fact that a few of those crude NJ a=
nd CT coppers were actually imports from Great Britain or Ireland, and not =
the product of some clandestine American mint.
Byron
--- In colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com, Steve Frank <tax=
i_steve929@...> wrote:
>
> Didn't Conder tokens make their way here? It could ha=
ve been the other way around too. I agree with Byron's thoughts on most col=
lectors wanting to believe everything they own is "Made in the USA"<s>, but=
even though the probabilities show this coin as being a British product, w=
ithout proof, the owners can imagine whatever they wish.....and usually do.
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Ray Williams <njraywms@...>
> To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 9:54:29 AM
> Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Important NJ Disc=
overy - Botched V Punch
>
>=20=20
> Oliver,
> &n! bsp; Because the Auctori Plebis reverse is mule=
d with other Conder Tokens, it appears that the design of the token was imi=
tated from that of a CT Copper and struck in England.=20
> Ray
>
>
> From: Oliver D. Hoover
> Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 9:06 AM
> To: colonial-coins@ yahoogroups. com
> Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Important NJ Disc=
overy - Botched V Punch
>=20=20
> Randy,
>
> I was wondering the same thing about the possible rel=
ationship between the Auctori Plebis pieces and the CT series.
>
> Oliver
>
>
> On 22-Sep-09, at 5:24 PM, Randy Clark wrote:
>
>
> >
> >
> >Byron ... is there now evidence Auctori Plebis is fo=
reign made ? It could equally be
> >considered a colonial issue in the absence of contra=
ry evidence. In fact, I was
> >looking closely at them for a while to see if it cou=
ld have been a CT product,
> >born of boredom or an attempt t! o skirt an ever tig=
htening noose of local coinage
> >restrictions. I am curious what others have learned =
to support foreign minting ...
> >
> >
>
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20
=20=20
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Oliver,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>There are a few references to conquer=
ed Indian=20
tribes counterfeiting their own Spanish coins. It is tough to image wh=
ere=20
they got the punches.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> I wrote a little article concerning =
some of=20
this for the C4 journal but I think it got sidelined, or wasn't good=20
enough<s></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The cob guy, Mendel Sewell (?) claimed thy=
e could=20
smelt their own silver.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Marc</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LE=
FT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>Fro=
m:</B>=20
<A title=3Doliver.hoover@sympatico.ca=20
href=3D"mailto:oliver.hoover@sympatico.ca">Oliver D. Hoover</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
title=3Dcolonial-coins@yahoogroups.com=20
href=3D"mailto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com">colonial-coins@yahoogroups=
.com</A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, September 23, 200=
9=20
10:20</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [Colonial Numismatics] In=
dian=20
counterfeiters? WAS: Important NJ Discovery - Botched V Punch</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><SPAN style=3D"DISPLAY: none"> </SPAN>=20
<DIV id=3Dygrp-text>
<P>The reason I ask is that I have been on and off working on a cha=
pter=20
about money and Native Americans for my study of the French and Ind=
ian=20
Wars period. From such evidence as I have been able to assemble, it looks=
like=20
most Indians (even those with long close contacts with the French and=20
Anglo-Americans) still had very little use for coins (as money) well into=
the=20
1750s. While they might appreciate them as objects suitable for personal=
=20
adornment (i.e. pierced for necklaces), they seem not to have understood =
their=20
use in European-style commerce which was completely alien to most traditi=
onal=20
native modes of exchange. Bearing this in mind, I think it is unlikely th=
at by=20
the1780s many Indians had become so well-attuned to European monetary way=
s=20
that (assuming a copper supply) they could have set up counterfeiting=20
operations. Besides, how would they have obtained screw presses?
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Oliver<BR>
<DIV><BR>
<DIV>
<DIV>On 23-Sep-09, at 11:38 AM, Rand! y Clark wrote:</DIV><BR=20
class=3DApple-interchange-newline>
<BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><SPAN class=3DApple-style-span=20
style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-SIZE: medium; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); TEX=
T-INDENT: 0px; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica; LETTER-SPACING: =
normal; BORDER-COLLAPSE: separate; FONT-VARIANT: normal"><BR><BR>LOL=20
!<BR><BR>Well, I am ashamed to say I did not consider it as a=20
serious<BR>consideration, so narrow mindedness is always at hand.=20
It<BR>depends on what we all think it takes to get something up<BR>and=
=20
running (equipment wise) ... and the availability of raw<BR>materials. =
The=20
raw materials, at least in my research, was<BR>the biggest constraint o=
n=20
state copper production. Many<BR>of the state mints melted=20
brass/bronze/<WBR>copper ... which<BR>the native Americans were likely =
in=20
short supply of. The<BR>alternatives of reusing existing host coins,=20
smelting local ore<BR>or stealing federal copper ... native Americans w=
ould=20
also<BR>likely have been ! at a disadvantage getting access to.=20
Only<BR>Americans were allowed to steal federal copper.<BR><BR><BR>
<DIV class=3Dgmail_quote>On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 8:27 AM, Oliver D.=20
Hoover<SPAN class=3DApple-converted-space> </SPAN><SPAN dir=3Dltr>=
<<A=20
href=3D"mailto:oliver.hoover@sympatico.ca">oliver.hoover@<WBR>sympatico=
.<WBR>ca</A>></SPAN><SPAN=20
class=3DApple-converted-space> </SPAN>wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">
<DIV><BR><BR>It always comes down to blaming the Canadians, doesn't i=
t?=20
I'm going to remember you said that Randy, after the conquest i=
s=20
complete.
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>I assume that you are also joking about the American Indian angl=
e.=20
Right?</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><FONT color=3D#888888>
<DIV>Oliver</DIV></FONT>
<DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=3Dh5>
<DIV><BR>
<DIV>
<DIV>On 23-Sep-09, at 11:18 AM, Randy Clark wrote:</DIV><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: normal; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; COLOR: rgb(0,0,=
0); TEXT-INDENT: 0px; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica; LETTER-SP=
ACING: normal; BORDER-COLLAPSE: separate; FONT-VARIANT: normal"><BR><BR>Ano=
ther=20
interesting idea. But a thread I'd like to see pursued is<BR>clande=
stine=20
minting by regional American Indian tribes. Think<BR>about it. Who =
had a=20
bigger "axe" to grind than the indigienous<BR>population ? Since fe=
deral=20
land had not yet been allocated to<BR>casinos, perhaps enterprising=
=20
tribes made state colonials and<SPAN> </SPAN><BR>dumped them o=
n the=20
local market. And, since England was<BR>responsible for much of the=
ir=20
troubles, they could have made<SPAN> </SPAN><BR>George II or I=
II=20
coppers for distribution offshore as well.<BR><BR>Or maybe it was .=
..=20
ssshhh ... the Canadians.<SPAN> </SPAN><BR><BR>The point is ..=
. all=20
of this is like Monty Python's "Argument Clinic".<BR>It's all=20
contradiction to some, and good fun for others, but there is<BR>not=
a=20
lot of evidence anywhere to make hard conclusions about<BR>"who! do=
ne=20
it". Yet.<BR><BR>
<DIV class=3Dgmail_quote>On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 a t 8:02 AM, John=20
Lupia<SPAN> </SPAN><SPAN dir=3Dltr><<A=20
href=3D"mailto:jlupia2@yahoo.com"=20
target=3D_blank>jlupia2@yahoo.<WBR>com</A>></SPAN><SPAN> </=
SPAN>wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">
<DIV><BR><BR>
<TABLE cellSpacing=3D0 cellPadding=3D0 border=3D0>
<TBODY>
<TR>
<TD style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: inherit; font-stretch: inherit"=20
vAlign=3Dtop>Randy<BR><BR>Besides State Mints how about Mex=
ican=20
Mints. After all, it has been proposed they made Lion Dolla=
rs.=20
Why not state coppers as well. ;-)<BR><BR>John N. Lupia=20
III<BR>New Jersey, USA; Beirut, Lebanon<SPAN> </SPAN><=
BR><A=20
href=3D"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Roman-Catholic-News/"=
=20
target=3D_blank>http://groups.<WBR>yahoo.com/<WBR>group/Rom=
an-<WBR>Catholic-<WBR>News/</A><BR>God=20
Bless Everyone<BR><BR>--- On<SPAN> </SPAN><B>Wed, 9/23=
/09,=20
Randy! Clark<SPAN> </SPAN><I><<A=20
href=3D"mailto:centsitive@gmail.com"=20
target=3D_blank>centsitive@gmail.<WBR>com</A>></I></B><S=
PAN> </SPAN>wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid"><BR>From:=
Randy=20
Clark <<A href=3D"mailto:centsitive@gmail.com"=20
target=3D_blank>centsitive@gmail.<WBR>com</A>>
<DIV><BR>Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Important NJ=
=20
Discovery - Botched V Punch<BR></DIV>
<DIV>To:<SPAN> </SPAN><A=20
href=3D"mailto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com"=20
target=3D_blank>colonial-coins@<WBR>yahoogroups.<WBR>com<=
/A><BR></DIV>Date:=20
Wednesday, September 23, 2009, 10:45 AM
<DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR><BR>
<DIV><BR><BR>Wow.<SPAN> </SPAN><BR><BR>The list of=20
British invasions gets bigger yet. In addition to the=20
Revolution, 1812 and the Beatles,<BR>we now were clandest=
inely=20
invaded with colonial state coppers. Crude ones, no less =
...=20
which<BR>made them much different than the local colonial=
=20
state co! ppers. An interesting idea, but hard<BR>to see =
where=20
the economics wou ld make any freaking sense to off shore=
=20
makers, who would<BR>have to pay shipping costs to dump c=
heap=20
coppers into a mark crowded with cheap coppers.<BR>But he=
y ...=20
who said counterfeiter had brains ?<BR><BR>
<DIV class=3Dgmail_quote>On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 7:37 AM,=
=20
Byron<SPAN> </SPAN><SPAN dir=3Dltr><<A=20
href=3D"http://mc/compose?to=3Dbkw11@psu.edu" target=3D_b=
lank=20
rel=3Dnofollow>bkw11@psu.edu</A>></SPAN><SPAN> </=
SPAN>wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">Hi=20
Steve,<BR><BR>I predict that one day American "Colonial=
"=20
collectors will have to wrap their minds around the fac=
t=20
that a few of those crude NJ and CT coppers were actual=
ly=20
imports from Great Britain or Ireland, and not the prod=
uct=20
of some clandestine American mint.<BR><BR>Byron<BR><BR>=
<BR>
<DIV><BR>--- In<SPAN> </SPAN><A=20
href=3D"http://mc/compose?to=3Dcolonial-coins@yahoogrou=
ps.com"=20
target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow=20
!>colonial-coins@<WBR>yahoogroups.<WBR>com</A>, Steve F=
rank=20
<taxi_steve929@<WBR>...> wrote:<BR>><BR></DIV>
<DIV>> Didn't Conder tokens make their way here? It =
could=20
have been the other way around too. I agree with Byron'=
s=20
thoughts on most collectors wanting to believe everythi=
ng=20
they own is "Made in the USA"<s>, but even though=
the=20
probabilities show this coin as being a British product=
,=20
without proof, the owners can imagine whatever they=20
wish.....and usually=20
do.<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>>=20
____________<WBR>_________<WBR>_________<WBR>__<BR></DI=
V>>=20
From: Ray Williams <njraywms@...><BR>
<DIV>> To:<SPAN> </SPAN><A=20
href=3D"http://mc/compose?to=3Dcolonial-coins@yahoogrou=
ps.com"=20
target=3D_blank=20
rel=3Dnofollow>colonial-coins@<WBR>yahoogroups.<WBR>com=
</A><BR>>=20
Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 9:54:29 AM<BR>>=
=20
Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Important NJ Discov=
ery -=20
Botched V Punch<BR>><BR>> <BR>>=20
Oliver,<BR>> &n! bsp; Because t=
he=20
Auctori Plebis reverse is muled with other Conder Token=
s, it=20
appears that the design of the token was imitated from =
that=20
of a CT Copper and struck in England. <BR>>=20
Ray<BR>><BR>><BR>> From: Oliver D. Hoover<BR>&=
gt;=20
Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 9:06 AM<BR>> To:=
=20
colonial-coins@ yahoogroups. com<BR>> Subject: Re:=20
[Colonial Numismatics] Important NJ Discovery - Botched=
V=20
Punch<BR>> <BR>> Randy,<BR>><BR>> I w=
as=20
wondering the same thing about the possible relationshi=
p=20
between the Auctori Plebis pieces and the CT=20
series.<BR>><BR>> Oliver<BR>><BR>><BR>> =
On=20
22-Sep-09, at 5:24 PM, Randy Clark=20
wrote:<BR>><BR>><BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>>=
;=20
>Byron ... is there now evidence Auctori Plebis is=20
foreign made ? It could equally be<BR>> >consider=
ed a=20
colonial issue in the absence of contrary evidence. In =
fact,=20
I was<BR>> >looking closely at them for a while t=
o see=20
if it could have been a CT product,<BR>> >born of=
=20
boredom or an attempt t! o skirt an ever tightening noo=
se of=20
local coinage<BR>> >restrictions. I am curious wh=
at=20
others have learned to support foreign minting ...<BR>&=
gt;=20
><BR>> ><BR>><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR></DIV>
<DIV>------------<WBR>---------<WBR>---------<WBR>-----=
-<BR><BR>Yahoo!=20
Groups Links<BR><BR><*> To visit your group on th=
e=20
web, go to:<BR> <A=20
href=3D"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/colonial-coins/"=
=20
target=3D_blank=20
rel=3Dnofollow>http://groups.<WBR>yahoo.com/<WBR>group/=
colonial-<WBR>coins/</A><BR><BR></DIV><*>=20
Your email settings:<BR> Individual Email |=
=20
Traditional<BR>
<DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR><*> To change settings online go=20
to:<BR> <A=20
href=3D"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/colonial-coins/jo=
in"=20
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