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From: marcus mayhugh <remi66111@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: marcus mayhugh <remi66111@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] William Wood Piece - UNIQUE
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Hey Ray,
If you have time to look,what do you think this one is?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3D110760758241
________________________________
From: Ray Williams <njraywms@optonline.net>
To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, November 7, 2011 4:12 PM
Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] William Wood Piece - UNIQUE
=C2=A0=20
Jeff,
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0If there were a simple=20
round collar used, the coin could have been placed inside and the lead pour=
ed on=20
top, but if this were the case, the impression left in the lead would be th=
e=20
full depth of the coin - and it doesn't look that deep.=C2=A0 So I agree it=
is=20
probably a coin pressed into the lead, either with a hammer or with a=20
vice.=C2=A0 As to when it was made...=C2=A0 it could have been any time and=
the=20
lead artificially aged.
Ray
From: Jeff Rock=20
Sent: Monday, November 07, 2011 4:57 PM
To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com=20
Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] William Wood Piece -=20
UNIQUE
John, the pedigree would be meaningless, the piece needs to stand on its=20
own merits.=C2=A0 Since there are legends, it can't be a hub.=C2=A0 Since t=
he=20
legends are reversed, it can't be a die.=C2=A0 That only leaves the method =
I=20
outlined.=C2=A0 Lead is VERY soft -- so maybe not a hammer, maybe something=
as=20
simple as a heavy stone laid on top of the coin-lead sandwich and pushed=20
in.=C2=A0 I don't understand your comment on unfiormity of depth -- that is=
=20
actually something that would condemn the piece as a die trial!=C2=A0 All i=
t=20
means is that the piece was pushed into the lead an equal distance.=C2=A0 A=
true=20
die trial (or a hub trial, for that matter), would reflect the different de=
pth=20
of the engraved features -- some would be deeper than others.=C2=A0 For a=20
sandwich coin, what you WILL have is uniformity of depth, with the absence =
of=20
the highest point of the coin (which would be the deepest part of the lead =
disc)=20
showing that it was pushed in so far, and no further.
=C2=A0
Ray, I don't think the lead was poured onto a coin directly -- the type of=
=20
lead splash that would result wouldn't be so uniform in appearance as this=
=20
disc.=C2=A0 It could, possibly, be that the disc was cast in lead and the c=
oin=20
gently pressed in before it hardened, but that seems a bit complicated.
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
On Mon, Nov 7, 2011 at 12:41 PM, colonialjohn <johnmenc@optonline.net> wrot=
e:
=20
>=C2=A0=20
>http://coins.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=3D336&lotNo=3D2260
>
>I=20
agree Jeff no motifs. But then again there is no set rule. At least the a=
lloy=20
of these set up pieces are similar. Unfortunately this piece is not pedig=
reed=20
to John Story Jenks <BG>.=20
>
>
>--- In colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com, "colonialjohn" <johnmenc@...> wrot=
e:
>>
>
>> What about a set up piece to test the finished working hub trial prior =
to it making the hardened alloy working dies? I understand that a working =
die would produce a regular image but a hub would create the same image as=
a hammered coin. The only question I have is of a coin into this piece is=
what is every motif complete, full and uniform? How is this possible with=
a hammer method? Are there any coins struck prior to the screw press whic=
h are 100% uniform even coming from an established mint? Totally uniformit=
y exists with this piece and the depth of the image is also uniform perfec=
tly - 360*. Using a hammer?
>>=20
>
>> --- In colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Rock <Rosaamltd@> wrote:
>> >
>> > John, this CAN NOT be a HUB TRIAL since the=20
hub did not have the legend or
>> > date punched in -- those were=20
added to the DIE by hand (as you can easily
>> > see by the vast=20
number of die varieties that exist with different legend
>> > spacing,=20
etc.). There may not have actually even been hubs for the
>> >=20
Hibernias -- punches for bust and seated figures may have been all that=20
was
>> > needed, with the legends punched in by hand.
>> >=20
>> > If this was a DIE TRIAL, then the image would look just like it=20
did on a
>> > struck coin, since it would have been struck from a die=20
which was reversed,
>> > imparting a normal image when struck.
>>=20
>=20
>> > The ONLY thing this can be -- and I've said it before when=20
you showed it --
>> > is something that was made by placing a Hibernia=20
halfpenny on a lead-ish
>> > disc and hammered in. If you have a piece=20
of lead and a Hibernia you want
>> > to sacrifice, try it out and the=20
end result will be exactly what you have
>> > here (though, of course,=20
freshly "struck" will look a bit different than an
>> > aged piece --=20
note I didn't say an old piece, I said aged. You can fake
>> > age=20
pretty easily, as has been seen with the thousands of counterfeit
>> >=20
ancients that have entered the marketplace).
>> >=20
>> >=20
Jeff
>> >=20
>
>> > On Mon, Nov 7, 2011 at 9:48 AM, colonialjohn <johnmenc@> wrote:
>> >=20
>> > > **
>> >=20
>
>> > >
>> > > HHHMMM ...
>> > >
>>=20
> > http://minterrornews.com/glossaryhubtrials.html
>> >=20
>
>> > > A working hub trial set up piece? See this site. Same=20
start and
>> > > directional flow of lettering as pictured for the=20
coin. Counter-clockwise
>> > > legend. Not sure Ray why on this=20
alloy. Maybe this test piece first for the
>> > > working hub then=20
the hardened alloy for the working die was created as you
>> > >=20
mentioned then the striking of the blanks.
>> > >
>> > >=20
--- In colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com, "colonialjohn" <johnmenc@>
>> > > wrote:
>> > > >
>> >=20
> > At one time I owned working hub trials simialr to this piece=20
purchased
>> > > from Bill Anton but these were for civil war store=20
cards (coins). Bill had
>> > > purchased seven of these pieces and=20
sold me three - not sure but one or
>> > > two? of these may have=20
been sold by Stacks CG. So at times you may see
>> > > working hub=20
trials or working dies being sold. A working hub trial impress
>> >=20
> images to the working die and then of course these to the blanks=20
for
>> > > circulation. Sold on E-Bay several years back. There is=20
alot going on with
>> > > this piece. But I will let this piece=20
stand on its own merit. A piece like
>> > > this will rise to the=20
occasion or fall and just be a curiosity piece
>> > > whether its=20
of this time period or not ... at $9.99 its open to anybody who
>> >=20
> is curious enough to do further research on the piece. There are also=20
these
>> > > curious scattered letters along the rim on the=20
reverse. Not sure if anyone
>> > > not using a high end press in=20
this time that can stamp uniformly ever
>> > > letter of the legend=20
FULL & CLEA R. Maybe? I took this piece as far I can
>> > > ...=20
it now falls on to the next owner ...
>> > > >
>> > >=20
> --- In colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com, Ray Williams <njraywms@> wrote:
>> > > > >
>> > > >=20
> John,
>> > > > > Okeedokee - I found it. It's a lead=20
disc with an impression of a
>> > > Wood's
>> > > >=20
> obverse in it. You state:
>> > > > >
>> > >=20
> > "Possible working hub or some form of die impression of a=20
Hibernia
>> > > Halfpence
>> > > > > of the=20
obverses of GEORGE I Circa 1722-1724"
>> > > > >
>> >=20
> > > I would need to disagree with you. A "working hub" would need=20
to be
>> > > > > made out of steel or iron - NOT lead. A die=20
impression into a lead
>> > > disc
>> > > > >=20
would leave a positive impression, not a reversed image impression
>>=20
> > which you
>> > > > > have.
>> > > >=20
> I think this could be made by hammering a Wood's coin into a lead
>>=20
> > > > disc... OR pouring lead over a Wood's coin. Now with your=20
metalurgical
>> > > > > analysis, you could be correct, as=20
you said:
>> > > > >
>> > > > > "The metal=20
in my opinion is something that would not be available to
>> > >=20
the
>> > > > > common person of the time"
>> > >=20
> >
>> > > > > If the metal alloy wasn't readily=20
available at the time, then I would
>> > > > > more suspect=20
that this is a modern fabrication.
>> > > > >
>> >=20
> > > But, let's see if someone thinks otherwise. I'd entertain=20
some
>> > > opinions of
>> > > > >=20
others...
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Ray
>>=20
> > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > >=20
>
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > >=20
> >
>> > > > >=20
--------------------------------------------------
>> > > > >=20
From: "Ray Williams" <njraywms@>
>> > > > > Sent:=20
Monday, November 07, 2011 11:00 AM
>> > > > > To: <colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com>
>> > > >=20
> Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] William Wood Piece - UNIQUE
>>=20
> > > >
>> > > > > > Found it:
>> >=20
> > > >
>> > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/William-Wood-Set-Up-Piece-1723-Hibernia-Half=
pence-Circular-Lead-Disc-/250926320059?pt=3DCoins_US_Individual&hash=3Ditem=
3a6c5fc9bb
>>=20
> > > > >
>> > > > > >=20
--------------------------------------------------
>> > > > >=20
> From: "Ray Williams" <njraywms@>
>> > > > > >=20
Sent: Monday, November 07, 2011 10:54 AM
>> > > > > > To:=20
<colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com>
>> > > >=20
> > Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] William Wood Piece -=20
UNIQUE
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > >>=20
John,
>> > > > > >> I just looked and couldn't find it.=20
What's the lot number?
>> > > > > >> Anyone?
>>=20
> > > > >> Ray
>> > > > > >>
>>=20
> > > > >>=20
--------------------------------------------------
>> > > > >=20
>> From: "colonialjohn" <johnmenc@>
>> > > > >=20
>> Sent: Sunday, November 06, 2011 9:29 PM
>> > > > >=20
>> To: <colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com>
>> > > >=20
> >> Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] William Wood Piece -=20
UNIQUE
>> > > > > >>
>> > > > >=20
>>> The usual channel in about 15 mintes from now ...
>> >=20
> > > >>>
>> > > > > >>> --- In colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com, Ray Williams <njrayw=
ms@>
>> > > > > >>> wrote:
>> >=20
> > > >>>>
>> > > > > >>>>=20
John,
>> > > > > >>>> Just got done watching the=20
Giants and saw these posts. Does this
>> > > > >=20
>>>> coin
>> > > > > >>>> have a new=20
obverse or reverse or both? Has Syd confirmed it as
>> > >=20
being
>> > > > > >>>> new?
>> > > >=20
> >>>> It looks like you put Eric top sleep here...
>>=20
> > > > >>>> Ray
>> > > > >=20
>>>>
>> > > > > >>>>=20
--------------------------------------------------
>> > > > >=20
>>>> From: "KF7CSO Foggy" <scroncher@>
>> > >=20
> > >>>> Sent: Sunday, November 06, 2011 7:13 PM
>>=20
> > > > >>>> To: <colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com>
>> > > >=20
> >>>> Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] William Wood Piece -=20
UNIQUE
>> > > > > >>>>
>> > > >=20
> >>>> > ZZZZ
>> > > > > >>>>=20
>
>> > > > > >>>> > colonialjohn=20
<johnmenc@> wrote:
>> > > > > >>>>=20
>
>> > > > > >>>> >>As some of you know=20
my William Wood collection was sold with my
>> > > > >=20
>>>> >>Jersies
>> > > > > >>>>=20
>>by
>> > > > > >>>> >>Stacks back in=20
2008. There was one piece I held back until the
>> > >=20
right
>> > > > > >>>> >>time
>> >=20
> > > >>>> >>to sell. I am selling it at NO=20
RESERVE. See tonight after 10:30
>> > > PM. I
>> > >=20
> > >>>> >>consider it genuine. Will buy back form the=20
buyer at anytime.
>> > > Good
>> > > > >=20
>>>> >>Luck
>> > > > > >>>>=20
>>if
>> > > > > >>>> >>your on this=20
very unusual piece. Its been posted once before
>> > > but=20
new
>> > > > > >>>> >>information I feel=20
proves its a real deal. Good Luck and enjoy
>> > > the C4
>>=20
> > > > >>>> >>Convention.
>> > >=20
> > >>>> >>
>> > > > >=20
>>>> >
>> > > > > >>>>=20
>
>> > > > > >>>> >=20
------------------------------------
>> > > > >=20
>>>> >
>> > > > > >>>> > Yahoo!=20
Groups Links
>> > > > > >>>> >
>> >=20
> > > >>>> >
>> > > > >=20
>>>> >
>> > > > > >>>>
>>=20
> > > > >>>
>> > > > >=20
>>>
>> > > > > >>>
>> > > >=20
> >>>
>> > > > > >>>=20
------------------------------------
>> > > > >=20
>>>
>> > > > > >>> Yahoo! Groups=20
Links
>> > > > > >>>
>> > > > >=20
>>>
>> > > > > >>>
>> > > >=20
> >>
>> > > > > >>
>> > > > >=20
>> ------------------------------------
>> > > > >=20
>>
>> > > > > >> Yahoo! Groups Links
>> >=20
> > > >>
>> > > > > >>
>> > >=20
> > >>
>> > > > > >
>> > > >=20
> >
>> > > > > >=20
------------------------------------
>> > > > > >
>>=20
> > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
>> > > > >=20
>
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > >
>>=20
> > > >
>> > > >
>> > >
>> > >=20
>> > >
>> >
>>
>
>
=20
--803641672-789108480-1320726358=:18624
Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<html><body><div style=3D"color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:ti=
mes new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt"><div><span>Hey Ray,</=
span></div><div><span>If you have time to look,what do you think this one i=
s?</span></div><div><br><span></span></div>http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI=
.dll?ViewItem&item=3D110760758241<div><br></div><div style=3D"font-fami=
ly: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"><div style=
=3D"font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"=
><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><hr size=3D"1"><b><span style=3D"font-weig=
ht:bold;">From:</span></b> Ray Williams <njraywms@optonline.net><br><=
b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> colonial-coins@yahoogro=
ups.com<br><b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Monday, N=
ovember 7, 2011 4:12 PM<br><b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Subject:</=
span></b> Re: [Colonial Numismatics] William Wood Piece - UNIQUE<br></font>=
<br><div
id=3D"yiv1137698205">
<div>
<span style=3D"display:none;"> </span>
<div id=3D"yiv1137698205ygrp-text">
=20=20=20=20=20=20
=20=20=20=20=20=20
<div>
</div><div><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2">Jeff,</font></div>
<div> <font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2">If there were =
a simple=20
round collar used, the coin could have been placed inside and the lead pour=
ed on=20
top, but if this were the case, the impression left in the lead would be th=
e=20
full depth of the coin - and it doesn't look that deep. So I agree it=
is=20
probably a coin pressed into the lead, either with a hammer or with a=20
vice. As to when it was made... it could have been any time and=
the=20
lead artificially aged.</font></div>
<div><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2">Ray</font></div>
<div style=3D"FONT:10pt Tahoma;">
<div><br></div>
<div style=3D"BACKGROUND:#f5f5f5;">
<div><b>From:</b> <a rel=3D"nofollow" title=3D"Rosaamltd@aol.com" ymailto=
=3D"mailto:Rosaamltd@aol.com" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:Rosaamltd@ao=
l.com">Jeff Rock</a> </div>
<div><b>Sent:</b> Monday, November 07, 2011 4:57 PM</div>
<div><b>To:</b> <a rel=3D"nofollow" title=3D"colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com=
" ymailto=3D"mailto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com" target=3D"_blank" href=
=3D"mailto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com">colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com</=
a>=20
</div>
<div><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Colonial Numismatics] William Wood Piece -=20
UNIQUE</div></div></div>
<div><br></div>
<div>John, the pedigree would be meaningless, the piece needs to stand on i=
ts=20
own merits. Since there are legends, it can't be a hub. Since t=
he=20
legends are reversed, it can't be a die. That only leaves the method =
I=20
outlined. Lead is VERY soft -- so maybe not a hammer, maybe something=
as=20
simple as a heavy stone laid on top of the coin-lead sandwich and pushed=20
in. I don't understand your comment on unfiormity of depth -- that is=
=20
actually something that would condemn the piece as a die trial! All i=
t=20
means is that the piece was pushed into the lead an equal distance. A=
true=20
die trial (or a hub trial, for that matter), would reflect the different de=
pth=20
of the engraved features -- some would be deeper than others. For a=20
sandwich coin, what you WILL have is uniformity of depth, with the absence =
of=20
the highest point of the coin (which would be the deepest part of the lead =
disc)=20
showing that it was pushed in so far, and no further.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Ray, I don't think the lead was poured onto a coin directly -- the typ=
e of=20
lead splash that would result wouldn't be so uniform in appearance as this=
=20
disc. It could, possibly, be that the disc was cast in lead and the c=
oin=20
gently pressed in before it hardened, but that seems a bit complicated.</di=
v>
<div> </div>
<div><br><br> </div>
<div class=3D"yiv1137698205gmail_quote">On Mon, Nov 7, 2011 at 12:41 PM, co=
lonialjohn <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a rel=3D"nofollow" ymailto=3D"mailto:john=
menc@optonline.net" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:johnmenc@optonline.net=
">johnmenc@optonline.net</a>></span>=20
wrote:<br>
<blockquote style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid;" class=3D"yiv1=
137698205gmail_quote"><u></u>
<div style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR:rgb(255,255,255);"><span> </span>=20
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div><a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://coins.ha.com/c/=
item.zx?saleNo=3D336&lotNo=3D2260">http://coins.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=
=3D336&lotNo=3D2260</a><br><br>I=20
agree Jeff no motifs. But then again there is no set rule. At least the a=
lloy=20
of these set up pieces are similar. Unfortunately this piece is not pedig=
reed=20
to John Story Jenks <BG>.=20
</div><div class=3D"yiv1137698205im"><br><br>--- In <a rel=3D"nofollow" y=
mailto=3D"mailto:colonial-coins%40yahoogroups.com" target=3D"_blank" href=
=3D"mailto:colonial-coins%40yahoogroups.com">colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com=
</a>, "colonialjohn"=20
<johnmenc@...> wrote:<br>><br></div>
<div class=3D"yiv1137698205im">> What about a set up piece to test the=
finished working hub=20
trial prior to it making the hardened alloy working dies? I understand th=
at a=20
working die would produce a regular image but a hub would create the same=
=20
image as a hammered coin. The only question I have is of a coin into this=
=20
piece is what is every motif complete, full and uniform? How is this poss=
ible=20
with a
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