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From njraywms@optonline.net Thu Dec 29 16:18:03 2011
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Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2011 19:18:08 -0500
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From: Ray Williams <njraywms@optonline.net>
Subject: Fw: [Colonial Numismatics] information
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John,
If you are talking about the British Token, it appears to be a test strike of the die, to see how elements of the design would look. More engraving was necessary to finish the die. Now if you could answer my question... how do you explain the denticles appearing as they would on an off center coin? Would not the denticles be engraved at an equal amount fully around any Hub Matrix? And most important... Could a coin have made the impression in your lead disc? Just an answer to the last question would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Ray

--------------------------------------------------
From: "colonialjohn" <johnmenc@optonline.net>
Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2011 6:17 PM
To: <colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] information

> OK. Ray ... try this one ... how do you account for the sporadic and clearly seen singular letters (full and partial) that are found on this piece in haphazard locations?
>
>
>
> --- In colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com, Ray Williams <njraywms@...> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Paul,
>> The disadvantage of someone paying $750 for this lead impression is that he will be so upset when he finds out what it is that he'll probably loose interest in colonials. Now, if he paid $750 for the item described as being an impression of a coin in lead... then he has no one to blame but himself. I remember the Pawn Stars episode with the MA Penny. I leaned over to Diane and said that only one existed and it's in the MA Historic Society. I have to say that the MA Historic Society put on a fabulous display of colonial coins and medals for us when the ANA was held in Boston. Anne Bentley did a fantastic job! I took a break from the convention and walked over to their museum with Roger S. What an enjoyable time we had!
>> Ray
>>
>>
>> From: Paul Cartmill
>> Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2011 5:24 PM
>> To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
>> Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] information
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> on the up side some fellow may just like this piece in his collection wether it is a hub trial or something more modern, it may add continuity to his other pieces in his mind(slightly burboned or not) and if he want to drop 750$ without reasearch or "buying the book" heck let him, money donesn't come easy to me so i'm abit more cautious when making a bigger purchase, however if this does sell for that price i may buy some old lead batteries and a few immunis replicas :)
>>
>> this reminds me of the guy on pawn stars who wanted to sell that paul revere massachussets coin and he even told there that there was only one known in the hands of the historical society......we do so want to believe in treasure, truth be known i considered buying this piece the first time out
>> but i though 50 was high........my dad was from scotland eh
>> paul
>> From: Ray Williams <njraywms@...>
>> To: Colonialcoins <colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com>
>> Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2011 1:56:32 PM
>> Subject: [Colonial Numismatics] information
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi Guys,
>> Some of you might be wondering why I have been persistent in showing John why he's wrong about his "hub matrix" theory. If we were just talking, we'd share our opinions and probably just walk away agreeing to disagree. But when information is published (book, journal, article, internet), it's out there forever and impossible to retract.
>> It's been my experience that us collectors of colonial coins just can't get enough information about these little round discs we so actively pursue. We want to know the history, the people involved, the pedigree, minting information... anything we can get our hands on. Being that none of the long time C4 members here have not jumped in to say that John may be correct, I'm assuming they are in agreement with me (I hope). But in any case, those collectors won't be fooled by something like this. My concern is the general public and new collectors are not accepting this piece as anything other than an impression of a Wood's obverse.
>> Obviously, an ebay seller has taken John's description and perpetuated it in his ebay sale of the came hunk of lead. The seller admits in his ebay store that he is not an expert. This piece may enter a collector's collection as something it's not. Someone could write an article about it for a weekly publication and perpetuate the myth even further, but I'd hope the editor would catch it for what it is and not print it.
>> I don't like it when catalogers and writers try to give themselves legitimacy by "Breen Bashing". Breen did a tremendous amount of good in numismatics. Especially later in life, he presented theories as fact, with nothing to back them up. But fact they were none the less. Now some of these "Breen facts" are being proven to be wrong, but the literature is already out there in the hands of thousands. If Breen had only qualified his statements by saying "It could be ..." or "It might have been..." or "My theory is...".
>> Back to the situation at hand. If this misinformation (in my opinion) could be corrected and agreed upon, hopefully John's theory won't go any further than this ebay sale. I don't think that any numismatic or scientific expertise is necessary to come to the conclusion that this is an impression of a coin in a lead disc. Just a close look at the item will bear this out.
>> But John, I am willing to consider anything you have to try to change my mind. If you succeed, I'll publicly agree and put an end to it. But if you should now agree with what I have said, please say so and put an end to it. Just one final question? Is it possible in your mind that a coin could have been used to make this impression?
>> Must run...
>> Ray
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

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<DIV>John, If you are talking
about the British Token, it appears to be a test strike of the die, to
see how elements of the design would look. More engraving was necessary to
finish the die. Now if you could answer my question... how do you
explain the denticles appearing as they would on an off center coin? Would
not the denticles be engraved at an equal amount fully around any Hub
Matrix? And most important... Could a coin have made the impression in
your lead disc? Just an answer to the last question would be
appreciated.</DIV>
<DIV>Thanks,</DIV>
<DIV>Ray</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>-------------------------------------------------- From:
"colonialjohn" <<A
href="mailto:johnmenc@optonline.net">johnmenc@optonline.net</A>> Sent:
Thursday, December 29, 2011 6:17 PM To: <<A
title="mailto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com CTRL + Click to follow link"
href="mailto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com">colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com</A>> Subject:
Re: [Colonial Numismatics] information</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>> OK. Ray ... try this one ... how do you
account for the sporadic and clearly seen singular letters (full and partial)
that are found on this piece in haphazard locations? > > >
 > --- In <A
href="mailto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com">colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com</A>,
Ray Williams <njraywms@...> wrote: >> >> Hi
Paul, >> The disadvantage of someone paying
$750 for this lead impression is that he will be so upset when he finds out what
it is that he'll probably loose interest in colonials. Now, if he paid
$750 for the item described as being an impression of a coin in lead...
then he has no one to blame but himself. I remember the Pawn Stars episode
with the MA Penny. I leaned over to Diane and said that only one existed
and it's in the MA Historic Society. I have to say that the MA Historic
Society put on a fabulous display of colonial coins and medals for us when the
ANA was held in Boston. Anne Bentley did a fantastic job! I took a
break from the convention and walked over to their museum with Roger S.
What an enjoyable time we had! >> Ray >> >>
 >> From: Paul Cartmill >> Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2011
5:24 PM >> To: <A
href="mailto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com">colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com</A>
 >> Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] information >>
 >> >> >> >> >> on the up side
some fellow may just like this piece in his collection wether it is a hub trial
or something more modern, it may add continuity to his other pieces in his
mind(slightly burboned or not) and if he want to drop 750$ without reasearch or
"buying the book" heck let him, money donesn't come easy to me so i'm abit more
cautious when making a bigger purchase, however if this does sell for that price
i may buy some old lead batteries and a few immunis replicas :) >>
 >> this reminds me of the guy on pawn stars who wanted to sell that
paul revere massachussets coin and he even told there that there was only one
known in the hands of the historical society......we do so want to believe in
treasure, truth be known i considered buying this piece the first time
out >> but i though 50 was high........my dad was from scotland
eh >> paul >> From: Ray Williams
<njraywms@...> >> To: Colonialcoins <<A
href="mailto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com">colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com</A>>
 >> Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2011 1:56:32 PM >> Subject:
[Colonial Numismatics] information >> >>
 >> >> Hi
Guys, >> Some of you might be wondering why I
have been persistent in showing John why he's wrong about his "hub matrix"
theory. If we were just talking, we'd share our opinions and probably just
walk away agreeing to disagree. But when information is published
(book, journal, article, internet), it's out there forever and impossible to
retract. >> It's been my experience that
us collectors of colonial coins just can't get enough information about these
little round discs we so actively pursue. We want to know the history, the
people involved, the pedigree, minting information... anything we can get
our hands on. Being that none of the long time C4 members here have not
jumped in to say that John may be correct, I'm assuming they are in agreement
with me (I hope). But in any case, those collectors won't be fooled by
something like this. My concern is the general public and new collectors
are not accepting this piece as anything other than an impression of a Wood's
obverse. >> Obviously, an ebay seller
has taken John's description and perpetuated it in his ebay sale of the came
hunk of lead. The seller admits in his ebay store that he is not an
expert. This piece may enter a collector's collection as something it's
not. Someone could write an article about it for a weekly publication and
perpetuate the myth even further, but I'd hope the editor would catch it for
what it is and not print it. >> I don't
like it when catalogers and writers try to give themselves legitimacy by "Breen
Bashing". Breen did a tremendous amount of good in numismatics.
Especially later in life, he presented theories as fact, with nothing to back
them up. But fact they were none the less. Now some of these "Breen
facts" are being proven to be wrong, but the literature is already out there in
the hands of thousands. If Breen had only qualified his statements by
saying "It could be ..." or "It might have been..." or "My theory
is...". >> Back to the situation at hand.
If this misinformation (in my opinion) could be corrected and agreed upon,
hopefully John's theory won't go any further than this ebay sale. I don't
think that any numismatic or scientific expertise is necessary to come to the
conclusion that this is an impression of a coin in a lead disc. Just a
close look at the item will bear this out.
 >> But John, I am willing to consider anything
you have to try to change my mind. If you succeed, I'll publicly agree and
put an end to it. But if you should now agree with what I have said,
please say so and put an end to it. Just one final question? Is it
possible in your mind that a coin could have been used to make this
impression? >> Must run... >> Ray >> >
 > > > > ------------------------------------ >
 > Yahoo! Groups Links > > <*> To visit your group on
the web, go to: > <A
href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/colonial-coins/">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/colonial-coins/</A> >
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Email | Traditional > > <*> To change settings online go
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(Yahoo! ID required) > > <*> To change settings via
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 > <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email
to: > <A
href="mailto:colonial-coins-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com">colonial-coins-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com</A> >
 > <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject
to: > <A
href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/">http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/</A> ></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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Date published

2011-12-29

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Fw Public Deposited

[Colonial Numismatics] information

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