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- From njraywms@optonline.net Sat Mar 03 19:37:05 2012
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From: Ray Williams <njraywms@optonline.net>
Subject: "NE" Counterstamped Quarters at C4-ANA and C4 Convention 2002
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Hi Jeff,
Yes, you remember correctly - I supplied the quarters. the second link=
below has a listing of what I struck. In addition to what is there, I did=
strike some flattened lead musket balls during the year when the DK token =
was being studied by Lou Jordan. I don't know how many - a dozen or two...
But you'll see from the chart that there are some rarities. I know tha=
t Clem asked me to strike a double strike error for him. I don't know for =
sure, but that might be the only error strike.=20=20
Ray=20=20
http://www.gmmnut.com/gmm/gmm48.html#c4
http://www.gmmnut.com/gmm/gmm51.html
From: Jeff Rock=20
Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2012 10:10 PM
To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com=20
Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] date help --& Joseph Richardson, silver=
smith
Hmmm, Ray, the last one I got was free! Heck, I didn't even pay for the qu=
arter it was counterstamped on -- it was a gift. How many did you make?
On Sat, Mar 3, 2012 at 7:07 PM, Ray Williams <njraywms@optonline.net> wrote=
:
=20=20=20=20
Jeff,
I wonder how much the NE counterstamp is worth on NY & MA State Quart=
ers??? LOL.
That was a good way to have fun in 2002, celebrating the 350th annive=
rsary of the Hull Mint. When I look at that punch, I remember the C4 Meeti=
ng at ANA 2002 and the C4 Convention, where I brought an anvil, a two pound=
sledge hammer, and counterstamped the quarters to give away. Lou Jordan's=
book also came out that year too!
Ray
From: Jeff Rock=20
Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2012 10:00 PM
To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com=20
Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] date help --& Joseph Richardson, silv=
ersmith
Random IR or IB counterstamp on a copper coin =3D $5-50 depending on the =
host coin. Joseph Richardson c/s on a copper coin is not known, but if one=
showed up would be at least $5,000 and maybe a heck of a lot more!
On Sat, Mar 3, 2012 at 4:15 PM, Paul K. Smith <culturalwarrior@yahoo.com.=
hk> wrote:
=20=20=20=20=20=20
Roger, please enlighten me. Why would it be such a big deal? =
=20
--- On Sun, 3/4/12, Roger Moore <rogermoore435@yahoo.com> wrote:
From: Roger Moore <rogermoore435@yahoo.com>=20
Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] date help --& Joseph Richar=
dson, silversmith
To: "colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com" <colonial-coins@yahoogroup=
s.com>
Date: Sunday, March 4, 2012, 4:22 AM=20
Paul, Very interesting comment!!! Would be numismatically ea=
rth shaking if there was some empirical evidence. Roger
From: Paul K. Smith <culturalwarrior@yahoo.com.hk>
To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com=20
Sent: Saturday, March 3, 2012 2:26 PM
Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] date help --& Joseph Rich=
ardson, silversmith
=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20
Now that is intriguing.=20=20
Wonder what the basis was for Joseph Richardson=
's being selected and commissioned to strike the Kittanning Destroyed medal=
in 1756, and the Easton medal in 1757. Had he struck any tokens or coins =
earlier?
(And that the same man who struck a medal honoring the =
man who destroyed an Indian village, the next year strikes a medal commemor=
ating peace with the Indians. Versatile like a chameleon.)=20
Although it is fanciful rather than empirical =
to speculate that 5 years earlier than his using Edward Duffield's design t=
o strike these medals, that in 1752 he used John Hull's simple design in st=
riking intrinsic-value Shillings of the 1652 NE Shilling. . .=20
Yes, totally fanciful -- although. . .=20
he was a successful merchant as well as a silversmith, =
and the style of one of his earlier maker's marks is akin to the style of H=
ull's "NE",=20
the way the base of the Richardson's "I" and the descen=
der of the "R" loop together at the base, within the cartouche,=20
reminiscent of the way Hull's "N" and "E" loop together=
at the top.
--- On Sat, 3/3/12, dmenchell@aol.com <dmenchell@=
aol.com> wrote:
From: dmenchell@aol.com <dmenchell@aol.com>
Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] date help
To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, March 3, 2012, 4:10 PM
Also remember that many silversmiths from the m=
id-Atlantic region to Canada were also producing silver trinkets for the fu=
r trade. While not coinage, the assortment of brooches, crosses, animal pe=
ndants, ear bobs, arm bands, and other items were an important medium of ex=
change with the Native Americans. And the earliest medals struck in the Co=
lonies were engraved by silversmiths (e.g. the Treaty of Easton and Kittann=
ing medals which were engraved and struck by Philadelphia silversmith Josep=
h Richardson).
In a message dated 3/3/2012 2:31:18 A.M. Easter=
n Standard Time, books@bowmanstonepress.com writes:
=
=20
A little later, but don't forget Standish Bar=
ry and maybe Van Voorhis.
-----Original Message-----From: "Jeff Rock" [=
rosaamltd@gmail.com]Date: 03/03/2012 01:15 AMTo: colonial-coins@yahoogroups=
.comSubject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] date help=20=20=20
Paul, no one is denying that there were engra=
vers and silver and goldsmiths in colonial America -- there were quite a fe=
w of them. Some like Chalmers, Revere, Brasher and Bailey and others all h=
ad ties to coinage. But that doesn't mean that EVERY silversmith struck co=
ins (though a few more than we thought did apparently regulate gold coinage=
, which is very interersting). Nor did every Blacksmith strike copper toke=
ns.
You've mentioned this piece of Mass silver an=
d continue to obliquely refer to it -- but have posted no pictures of it! =
This is like the blind men trying to identify what an elephant is by touchi=
ng it -- except that we don't even have the elephant! There are some incr=
edibly knowledgable people on this group -- proabbly more than you will fin=
d in any other setting in this country (and Canada, sorry Oliver). But the=
y can't help at all if you're asking opinions on something that they have n=
ot seen. Only a fool would offer an opinion without seeing what it is they=
are talking about -- and I'm sure you can find some of those to say what y=
ou want to hear. But if that's the kind of opinion you value, then by all =
means go out and get it. A single photograph can at least help put you on =
the right track, and in this day and age that is not difficult to do. I ha=
ve taken decent enough pictures with my cell phone camera (not ideal, but a=
t least good enough to tell what something is), and you clearly have intern=
et capabilities, so this shouldn't be too difficult to do.=20=20
On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 7:22 PM, Ray Williams =
<njraywms@optonline.net> wrote:=20
=
=20
All famous in their time, but did they stri=
ke any coins or tokens that we know about?
Ray
From: Paul K. Smith
Sent: Friday, March 02, 2012 7:42 PM
To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] date he=
lp
Ray, guess I'll begin with this dozen:=20=20
Jeremiah Dummer, John Coney, Timothy Dwight=
, Edward Winslow, David Jesse, Samuel Vernon, Benjamin Benton, Jacob Boelen=
,
Caesare Ghiselin, John Nys, Phillip Syng, S=
r., and Cornelius Kierstede.
--- On Sat, 3/3/12, Ray Williams <njraywms@=
optonline.net> wrote:
From: Ray Williams <njraywms@optonline.net>
Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] date he=
lp
To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, March 3, 2012, 8:07 AM
Paul,
What Craig is referring to here is that=
we have another member who postulates some theories without any evidence a=
nd he also clings to those theories even well after being disproven. It wo=
uld be nice to think some silversmith issued his own coinage, but there is =
no evidence that it ever happened and if something "miraculously" showed up=
, it would be put to some very strong scrutiny. But if you find some conte=
mporary documentation, I'd love to hear about it!
Ray
From: CMcdon0923@aol.com
Sent: Friday, March 02, 2012 5:42 PM
To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] date he=
lp
JPL you little minx........is this actually=
you ? <bg>
In a message dated 3/2/2012 4:31:46 P.M. Ce=
ntral Standard Time, culturalwarrior@yahoo.com.hk writes:
=
=20
Is history what we observe?=20=20
Or is history what we discover?
Or, is history what happened, including wha=
t we know, and
what we in time discover.=20
The dwarf planet Pluto existed for billions=
of years,=20
but no one "knew of" Pluto until 1930 --
and it, like Uranus, was discovered by sear=
ching out inferences.
I simply think there are similar opportunit=
ies for discovery
in early numismatic Americana.=20=20
--- On Sat, 3/3/12, Ray Williams <njraywms@=
optonline.net> wrote:
From: Ray Williams <njraywms@optonline.net>
Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] date he=
lp
To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, March 3, 2012, 6:04 AM
Not a silversmith, but Lord Baltimore struc=
k silver coins. Chalmer was a silversmith and did strike coins. But I kno=
w of no other silversmith that struck silver coins for local or wide circul=
ation in the British American Colonies...
Ray
From: Paul K. Smith=20
Sent: Friday, March 02, 2012 4:49 PM
To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com=20
Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] date he=
lp
Jeff, I do not mean to walk all over your C=
lub's dedication to Colonial-era copper counterfeits and evasions --
-- and I realize that the copper half-penny=
was the coin most commonly used for small transactions in the Colonies --
but I am fully convinced there is a possibi=
lity,=20=20
following the abandonment of Massachusett's=
silver coinage in 1682, and its General Court's rejection in 1686 of the p=
roposal to renew coinage,
that at least one enterprising silversmith =
struck intrinsic value 3-pence, 6-pence, and shillings for commerce within =
the Colonies.
--- On Sat, 3/3/12, Jeff Rock <rosaamltd@gm=
ail.com> wrote:
From: Jeff Rock <rosaamltd@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] date he=
lp
To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, March 3, 2012, 5:32 AM
I think every country has their own version=
of something that at least LOOKS like an evasion -- whether it was done to=
actually evade counterfeiting laws is the question! There were plenty of =
counterfeits made, in most (if not all) European countries, with backwards =
letters and numbers, crude engravings, mis-spelled words, wrong portraits a=
nd the like. For many of these you can chalk it up to an inexperienced cou=
nterfeiter or die sinker, or just someone who didn't much care. As far as =
I know, though, only England had the peculiar law that created a loophole f=
or evasion coppers -- they were legal as long as they weren't an "exact" co=
py of a regal copper.=20
On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 1:27 PM, Paul K. Smi=
th <culturalwarrior@yahoo.com.hk> wrote:=20
=
=20
Good question. Dominic Labb=C3=A9 would kno=
w. But my posting was meant as a tongue-in-cheek example of an "evasion".
--- On Sat, 3/3/12, Paul Cartmill <cartmill=
_paul@yahoo.com> wrote:
From: Paul Cartmill <cartmill_paul@yahoo.co=
m>=20
Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] date he=
lp
To: "colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com" <colon=
ial-coins@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Saturday, March 3, 2012, 4:58 AM=20
Paul,As an ex Montrealer who enjoys a drink=
i am intrigued....what would our blacksmith use for a blank? the only thre=
e pence coins i know of are silver
...paul
From: Paul K. Smith <culturalwarrior@yahoo.=
com.hk>
To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, March 2, 2012 12:18:58 PM
Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] date he=
lp
=
=20
Well in Montreal they tell of the alco=
holic blacksmith who when he felt the need for a drink would coin his own (=
poor quality) silver threepence, or in that other British colony, Australia=
, there was Conrad Erichsen, the Norwegian engraver who migratede to New So=
uth Wales and struck his own sixpence. . . .=20=20
--- On Sat, 3/3/12, Jeff Rock <rosaamltd@gm=
ail.com> wrote:
From: Jeff Rock <rosaamltd@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] date he=
lp
To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, March 3, 2012, 3:45 AM
Paul, you're mixing apples and oranges here=
. There are no silver counterfeit halfpence/farthings or evasions! We are=
talking about a very specific area here, counterfeit halfpence and evasion=
coppers.=20=20
You've asked about your Mass silver, which =
is what I assume you are referring to here again, and as I said without a p=
hotograph of the piece it's absolutely impossible for anyone to give you an=
idea. It can be something that is 300 years old or something that is 3 ye=
ars old. It could be worth tens of thousands of dollars or worth a few dol=
lars as a modern curiosity. If I were you, I would invest in getting a pho=
tograph taken, or get a digital camera and take one yourself -- because wit=
hout that, anyone's guess is worth the paper it isn't printed on (well, unl=
ess you print out the e-mail....then it's not even worth that).
On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 11:37 AM, Paul K. Sm=
ith <culturalwarrior@yahoo.com.hk> wrote:=20
=
=20
Jeff, let's take a case where the stri=
ke is in silver, it copies the legends,
but it is way overweight -- as if to evade =
the anti-counterfeiting law --
is that silversmith's copy a counterfeit or=
an evasion?
--- On Sat, 3/3/12, Jeff Rock <rosaamltd@gm=
ail.com> wrote:
From: Jeff Rock <rosaamltd@gmail.com>=20
Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] date he=
lp
To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, March 3, 2012, 2:08 AM=20
Calvin, you're going to have to go back to =
school! <g> First off, no Chris is involved in this thread! David posted=
a pic of his 1777 counterfeit farthing -- clearly a 1777, with no doubt wh=
atsoever as to the date. Second, an evasion is NOT a counterfeit. A count=
erfeit copies the regal legends (GEORGIVS III REX, for instance). An evasi=
on "evades" the counterfeiting law by altering the legends, sometimes a lit=
tle, sometimes a lot. Take a look at the evasions that Roger posted and lo=
ok at the legends on either side and see if you spot the difference.=20
On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 8:14 AM, Calvin Godd=
ard <petcal50@gmail.com> wrote:=20
=
=20
=EF=BB=BF=20
Thank for taking the time Roger and David &=
Chris...I do see the issues involved here...I have a stupid question...you=
state you att. 2, 1777 evasion 1/4d, then write you have never seen a CFT =
1777....isn't an evasion considered a CFT?
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Roger Moore=20
To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com=20
Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2012 4:49 PM
Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] date he=
lp
=
=20
Hello Calvin, Just home after a long day. =
Though 1777 would be nice, for a farthing the most common date is 1773 and=
I think that is what your coin is. It could be a 1771 with a long top to =
the one-digit - we see this alot in the halfpence series and 1771s are ofte=
n labeled on eBay as 1777s. However, 1771's are VERY rare. I have attached =
one 1771, and a few 1773 farthings with no attempt to find a die match for =
your coin but simply to point out how the threes look on some of them. You=
can imagine in your coin that only the upper half of the 3 can be seen sin=
ce the rest is off the planchet. I think your coin is a 1773. I agree wit=
h David, that it is not a 1777. I have attached two 1777 farthing evasions=
in my collection. I have never seen a 1777 counterfeit farthing though I =
would not go so far as to say one does not exist!! I just don't think your=
coin fits that label. Sorry. Roger
From: Calvin Goddard <petcal50@gmail.com>
To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, March 1, 2012 11:57 AM
Subject: [Colonial Numismatics] date help
=
=20
=EF=BB=BF=20
If folks want to help with dating this Fart=
hing, I would appreciate it...D.P. suggested 1775...pic Q3 looks like 1770,=
Q4 makes it look like 1720!
Thanks
Calvin.
=
=20
=
=20
=
=20
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=20
=
=20
=
=20
=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20
=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20
=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20
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<DIV><FONT size=3D2 face=3DArial>Hi Jeff,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> <FONT size=3D2 face=3DArial>Yes, you remember =
correctly=20
- I supplied the quarters. the <U>second link</U> below has a listing=
of=20
what I struck. In addition to what is there, I did strike some flatte=
ned=20
lead musket balls during the year when the DK token was being studied by Lo=
u=20
Jordan. I don't know how many - a dozen or two...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> <FONT size=3D2 face=3DArial>But you'll see fro=
m the=20
chart that there are some rarities. I know that Clem asked me to stri=
ke a=20
double strike error for him. I don't know for sure, but that might be=
the=20
only error strike. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2 face=3DArial>Ray</FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2 face=3DArial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2 face=3DArial><A=20
title=3D"http://www.gmmnut.com/gmm/gmm48.html#c4
CTRL + Click to follow=
link"=20
href=3D"http://www.gmmnut.com/gmm/gmm48.html#c4">http://www.gmmnut.com/gmm/=
gmm48.html#c4</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2 face=3DArial><A=20
title=3D"http://www.gmmnut.com/gmm/gmm51.html
CTRL + Click to follow li=
nk"=20
href=3D"http://www.gmmnut.com/gmm/gmm51.html">http://www.gmmnut.com/gmm/gmm=
51.html</A></FONT></DIV>
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<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Tahoma">
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #f5f5f5">
<DIV style=3D"font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A=20
title=3D"mailto:rosaamltd
|
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