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- From johnmenc@optonline.net Fri Mar 23 08:08:25 2012
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From: "colonialjohn" <johnmenc@optonline.net>
Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Wood Error Hub Trial Piece - A re-evaluation
X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=111282553; y=wSQOp5HGG5pIWNv2msES-Mjm-7sTCN0EoafbF5kuduQlMpbBsUlJpEbpww
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Byron -
No doubt about it ... I am always pushing the envelope. This XRF & EBSD/SEM=
thing is turning out good. Here are some benefits:
1. When I purchase a contemporary counterfeit knowing its EXACT composition=
has been very useful. As an example in the CC2R field I have reported seve=
ral bronze (Cu/Sn) pieces rather than the current catalougers calling "ever=
ything" brass (CuZn). Some brass CC2R's will no doubt be reclassified to br=
onze someday.
2. As with the Blackmsiths it gave me a whole new perspective of their true=
origin. The data table I have already sent to a few people will take it le=
aps and bounds above the "drunken blackmsith" routine.
3. With EBSD/SEM we are able to look at a coin's microstructure and deterim=
ine its physical make-up. This is almost like a distinct fingerprint. This =
has great potential in moving forward in determining the physical and compo=
sitional differences between cast and "cast struck."
4. Cast pieces. With historians and catalougers this has always been a tabo=
o area. Cast is actually a bad word. As an example in the CC8R field I have=
purchased three or four suspected cast looking pieces which turned aout to=
be 95-98% tin. Not to many people have the skill at this time to determine=
that a $5.00 cast looking CC8R is actually a $100-200 high Sn alloy exampl=
e and is GNL# listed.
5. Mercury. Not much has been written about the value of this metal. Specif=
ically, in terms of its use as an amalgam. The last I read from some Herita=
ge Sale selling Birmingham SOHO gilt pieces - Borchert their top catalouger=
was mentioning something discussion/reference to Breen and Soho and how th=
ese pieces were made is still a mystery? In one afternnon Dr. Anderhalt and=
myself have laid out all this information on how mercury and gold were use=
d interactively in the gilt application process using just one EBSD/SEM ana=
lysis. A future CNL paper.
6. Blackmsith Wood 15. Why was this piece delisted from the series. The rea=
l reason. For brass Blackmsiths the zinc content is normally in the range o=
f 5-13% from my collection analysis. Realizing this low amount of zinc and =
depending if its in the upper or lower end and its environmental conditions=
make certain pieces look like copper or brass. This is not a common brass =
mix with zinc this low and is distinctive to a certain group of coins and r=
egion in my opinion. So far the Tiffins and Blackmsiths have this character=
istic. This brings me to the Mark Fox inquiry ... <BG>. Who did the engravi=
ng and who was the metal supplier of these coins? Any connection to the Tif=
fins & Blacksmiths <BG>. Of course there is ... Mark Fox will be telling ev=
eryone about is shortly.
Byron ... in short ... I don't pay much attention to historians anymore ...=
<BG>. Well ... Until I retire from EDAX ... <BG>.
--- In colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com, "Byron" <bkw11@...> wrote:
>
> The rings on the bottom look like those found in a gunsmith's melting pot=
. We can all dream, I suppose, but you've made an art out of it, John. Mayb=
e I should get me a bullet lead pot and sell them on eBay for what they rea=
lly are; paperweights. At least I'd be able to sleep nights.
>=20
> Byron
>=20
>=20
>=20
> --- In colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com, "colonialjohn" <johnmenc@> wrote:
> >
> > Actually I always considered it a set-up piece of some sort or to this =
new enlightment a forgers set-up piece as I have seen almost a half dozen o=
f this type when viewing world auctions in the last year other than the usu=
al well pedigreed legitimate die trials as I linked already to this group f=
rom the DNW past auctions with a similar style.
> > Hub was a stretch ... <BG>. I did use the word "possible." <BG>. Ray it=
s a great piece ... sometimes that what certain coins do is itgive people =
migraine headaches <VBG>.
> > Excuse me for a minute I have to put in a strong bid for smoe cast stru=
ck colonial ... <BG>. Be right back ...=20
> >=20
> >=20
> >=20
> >=20
> >=20=20
> >=20
> > --- In colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com, Ray Williams <njraywms@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Image attached for those not familiar
> > >=20
> > > John,
> > > Then please buy it back and take it out of circulation.
> > > #1 There were no Wood's full die hubs according to the expert.
> > > Busts could have been made by a hub, then the lettering added=
after.
> > > #2 If such a hub existed it would not be engraved off center as th=
is=20
> > > piece is.
> > > Further evidence that the lead impression was made from an of=
f=20
> > > center Wood's Hibernia pressed into the lead.
> > > #3 You "still say it does not match to an obverse die in Syd's boo=
k"
> > > Then you say you don't own the book!
> > > So how can you make that statement?
> > > #4 Photos and lead impression are terrible, why waste the time try=
ing to=20
> > > attribute it? I don't even think Syd could attribute it with the giv=
en=20
> > > images.
> > >=20
> > > But as Roger M was wondering... why even continue the discussion on =
this=20
> > > fabrication, other than to make sure the public is aware that it isn'=
t as=20
> > > was (and is) purported to be in posts here and on ebay.
> > >=20
> > > Ray
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > > --------------------------------------------------
> > > From: "colonialjohn" <johnmenc@>
> > > Sent: Friday, March 23, 2012 6:52 AM
> > > To: <colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com>
> > > Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Wood Error Hub Trial Piece - A=20
> > > re-evaluation
> > >=20
> > > > ... you making fun of my signature posting ... <VBG>. I really woul=
d buy=20
> > > > that piece back for DOUBLE what he paid for it ... still say it doe=
s not=20
> > > > match to an obverse die in Syd's book. I don't own the book ... so =
... its=20
> > > > for somebody else to prove me wrong again ... <BG>.
> > > >
> > > > --- In colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com, buellish@ wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> Looing on E-Bay?=C2 I didn't know you were British John. <s>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> ________________________________
> > > >> From: colonialjohn <johnmenc@>
> > > >> To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
> > > >> Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2012 8:32 PM
> > > >> Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Wood Error Hub Trial Piece - A=
=20
> > > >> re-evaluation
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> =C2
> > > >>
> > > >> HMMM ... two offers ... bidding on two pieces now similar to the W=
ood's=20
> > > >> piece ... seen three others ... will post if succesful ... Jeff ..=
. don't=20
> > > >> bother looing on E-Bay ... <BG>.
> > > >>
> > > >> --- In colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com, "colonialjohn" <johnmenc@> =
wrote:
> > > >> >
> > > >> > ... still like to see its Martin attribution ... its clear enoug=
h ...=20
> > > >> > anyone ... ???
> > > >> >
> > > >> > --- In colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Rock <rosaamltd@> wr=
ote:
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > Ray, we can split the proceeds! <g> Or, you can make another=
...but=20
> > > >> > > then
> > > >> > > that would cut the value dramatically!
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > On Thu, Mar 22, 2012 at 7:18 PM, Ray Williams <njraywms@>wrote=
:
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > > **
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > **
> > > >> > > > I found it:
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/UNIQUE-AND-RARE-WOODS-HIBERNIA-HALFP=
ENNY-DIE-TRIAL-HUB-MEDAL-TOKEN-COIN-/320804533921?pt=3DCoins_US_Individual&=
hash=3Ditem4ab170b6a1
> > > >> > > > That's what I was afraid of - the perpetuation of bad inform=
ation.=20
> > > >> > > > I'd
> > > >> > > > sell him the lead hub trial I had of the NY Excelsior token,=
but it=20
> > > >> > > > already
> > > >> > > > resides in another collection!
> > > >> > > > LOL
> > > >> > > > Ray
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > *From:* Ray Williams <njraywms@>
> > > >> > > > *Sent:* Thursday, March 22, 2012 10:12 PM
> > > >> > > > *To:* colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
> > > >> > > > *Subject:* Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Wood Error Hub Trial P=
iece -=20
> > > >> > > > A
> > > >> > > > re-evaluation
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > What was it P T Barnum said??? Do you have a lot # on ebay?
> > > >> > > > Ray
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > *From:* Jeff Rock <rosaamltd@>
> > > >> > > > *Sent:* Thursday, March 22, 2012 10:01 PM
> > > >> > > > *To:* colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
> > > >> > > > *Subject:* Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Wood Error Hub Trial P=
iece -=20
> > > >> > > > A
> > > >> > > > re-evaluation
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > Unfortunately, the person who bought it from John based on h=
is=20
> > > >> > > > description
> > > >> > > > is still trying to sell it on e-bay as a die trial. The goo=
d part=20
> > > >> > > > of that
> > > >> > > > is so far no one has been suckered into it -- which means th=
at more
> > > >> > > > beginning collectors have more sense than I thought!
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > On Thu, Mar 22, 2012 at 1:53 PM, Ray Williams <njraywms@>wro=
te:
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > >> **
> > > >> > > >>
> > > >> > > >>
> > > >> > > >> **
> > > >> > > >> That's it Roger,
> > > >> > > >> The two other replies state it better than me and in mu=
ch=20
> > > >> > > >> fewer
> > > >> > > >> words. I just want to be sure that someone reading posts o=
n this=20
> > > >> > > >> piece
> > > >> > > >> don't believe it's a legitimate "die trial" or die hub tria=
l".
> > > >> > > >> Ray
> > > >> > > >>
> > > >> > > >> *From:* Roger Moore <rogermoore435@>
> > > >> > > >> *Sent:* Thursday, March 22, 2012 4:40 PM
> > > >> > > >> *To:* colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
> > > >> > > >> *Subject:* Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Wood Error Hub Trial =
Piece -=20
> > > >> > > >> A
> > > >> > > >> re-evaluation
> > > >> > > >>
> > > >> > > >> Ray, Sometimes it is best to ignore obvious provocations. =
Only=20
> > > >> > > >> reason
> > > >> > > >> to respond which is why I understand you would, is to preve=
nt=20
> > > >> > > >> others from
> > > >> > > >> being fooled. Roger
> > > >> > > >>
> > > >> > > >> Sent from my iPhone
> > > >> > > >>
> > > >> > > >> On Mar 22, 2012, at 4:37 PM, Ray Williams <njraywms@> wrote=
:
> > > >> > > >>
> > > >> > > >>
> > > >> > > >>
> > > >> > > >> John,
> > > >> > > >> There is no graceful way for you to gracefully back out of =
your=20
> > > >> > > >> original
> > > >> > > >> (current?) assumptions (speculations?) on this piece. If it=
were a=20
> > > >> > > >> die
> > > >> > > >> trial, the image in the lead disc, would look like a coin -=
it=20
> > > >> > > >> doesn't!!!
> > > >> > > >> It is the mirror image of a coin because a coin was used to=
make=20
> > > >> > > >> this
> > > >> > > >> impression. Someone hammered a coin into this lead disc for=
some=20
> > > >> > > >> unknown
> > > >> > > >> reason. When and where it was done, who knows... But you ne=
ed to=20
> > > >> > > >> let it
> > > >> > > >> go - you made a mistake and move on.
> > > >> > > >> Ray
> > > >> > > >>
> > > >> > > >> --------------------------------------------------
> > > >> > > >> From: "colonialjohn" <johnmenc@>
> > > >> > > >> Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2012 2:44 PM
> > > >> > > >> To: <colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com>
> > > >> > > >> Subject: [Colonial Numismatics] Wood Error Hub Trial Piece =
- A
> > > >> > > >> re-evaluation
> > > >> > > >>
> > > >> > > >> > Jeff Rock - just a thought - as I continue to serach and=
=20
> > > >> > > >> > purchase world
> > > >> > > >> > contemporary counterfeits and then XRF and study their=20
> > > >> > > >> > compositions I
> > > >> > > >> have
> > > >> > > >> > found on occassion a new type of CC collectible. I see=20
> > > >> > > >> > counterfeit coin
> > > >> > > >> > type impressions struck on large metal disc flans such as=
this=20
> > > >> > > >> > Wood
> > > >> > > >> > piece - and the sellers are basically selling these piece=
s as=20
> > > >> > > >> > forger
> > > >> > > >> test
> > > >> > > >> > pieces for these respective counterfeits. This so-called =
Wood=20
> > > >> > > >> > hub?
> > > >> > > >> trial
> > > >> > > >> > piece is "possibly" then a test piece used by a forger to=
test=20
> > > >> > > >> > his dies
> > > >> > > >> > prior to counterfeiting this piece ... I suspect there is=
no=20
> > > >> > > >> > Martin
> > > >> > > >> > designation for this obverse die. Just a thought ...
> > > >> > > >> >
> > > >> > > >> >
> > > >> > > >> >
> > > >> > > >> > ------------------------------------
> > > >> > > >> >
> > > >> > > >> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > >> > > >> >
> > > >> > > >> >
> > > >> > > >> >
> > > >> > > >>
> > > >> > > >> =3D
> > > >> > > >>
> > > >> > > >>
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> >
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
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