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From: "Byron" <bkw11@psu.edu>
Subject: Re: Ryder 40, Wood 36 and some others ...
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I'm so glad that the 2nd Edition will include so much about other series be=
sides just counterfeit halfpence, John. (Now I'm laughing!)
Byron
--- In colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com, "colonialjohn" <johnmenc@...> wrote:
>
> I would say cry ... because Ryder 5 also has some interesting diagnostics=
... I suspect that some cast pieces may indeed be struck due to slightly e=
levated lead levels making them appear as cast pieces like the Anton coin. =
Too much for this forum ... it will be discussed in the book. If you own a =
Ryder 5 I would say hold onto it for at least another year until you see my=
results/discussion on this variety <BG>.
>=20
> --- In colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com, "Byron" <bkw11@> wrote:
> >
> > I don't whether to laugh or to cry...
> >=20
> > Byron
> >=20
> > --- In colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com, "colonialjohn" <johnmenc@> wrote=
:
> > >
> > > Silver and lead is variable in copper alloys at this level. It was ba=
sically the metrology here that dictated the host coin - XRF only proved it=
was not cast or a modern copper alloy. Frank did not have the patience to =
break down the host coin based on the visible letter characters that are pr=
esent and the coin was in my possession only for the XRF analysis and basic=
metrology measurements - the next owner might decipher these motifs. This =
article's main purpose was to bring this IMPORTANT coin into the limelight.
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > > --- In colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com, "Byron" <bkw11@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I'm not sure that I understand the title of your article then, John=
, as the XRF analysis essentially proves your premise to be wrong; with ess=
entially ten times the lead and three to 9 times the silver in the two Sols=
.
> > > >=20
> > > > Yes, it appears the 2nd Edition of "Forgotten Coins..." promises to=
be another "winner." But for who, I'm not sure.
> > > >=20
> > > > Byron
> > > >=20
> > > > --- In colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com, "colonialjohn" <johnmenc@> w=
rote:
> > > > >
> > > > > For M.56-n the XRF acted as a assay screen and basically proved i=
t was struck and not cast. The metrology of the coin (diameter, weight and =
thickness was virtually identical to the French 1 Sol). There are traces of=
undertype but it would take time to unravel. The current owner only wanted=
to determine if it was genuine struck piece ... in my opinion ... it is ..=
. it will probably be sold at the ANA or consigned to the C4 Auction ... I =
would ...
> > > > >=20
> > > > > Anton could care less whether you believe its real or not ... in =
some ways this is a problem ... that's Bill Anton ... he is only doing this=
for the book ... his sons want to give this to him as as a momento ... I w=
ill take the coin as far as EDAX will allow me and Bill Anton ... all I can=
do is prove its struck and its microstructure is genuine to other pieces o=
f the era ...=20=20
> > > > >=20
> > > > > --- In colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com, "Byron" <bkw11@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'm still trying to figure out why you think the Jozapaitis 56-=
n is overstruck on a French Sol. As far as I can tell the only thing they r=
eally have in common is weight, and the 56-n is a grain or so heavier. And =
the XRF statistical minutia apparently doesn't prove anything, in fact it s=
eems to be quite off comparing the two.
> > > > > >=20
> > > > > > Figures often beguile me, particularly when I have the arrangin=
g of them myself; in which case the remark attributed to Disraeli would oft=
en apply with justice and force: "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn=
ed lies and statistics."
> > > > > > - Autobiography of Mark Twain
> > > > > >=20
> > > > > > As for the dead horse, may God have mercy on his soul!
> > > > > >=20
> > > > > > Byron
> > > > > >=20=20=20
> > > > > >=20
> > > > > > --- In colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com, "colonialjohn" <johnmenc=
@> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Finally got to do some XRF assays (initial analysis) on some =
coins for the upcoming Forgotten Coins Book. Some comments:
> > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > 1. Canadian Blackmsith Wood 36: Rarity 8? (Two Known?) The ob=
verse head has the same general appearance as Wood 34 & Wood 35 with the in=
famous retrograde date reading 1471 which was doubtless intended for 1741. =
The William Anton Collection houses this variety as well as the Bank of Can=
ada Money Museum via W. Baker?. With this type of retrograde date it appear=
s to be British than Canadian but this has changed from my C4 Paper. Purcha=
sed actually from Cobwright in England for $600. An incredible coin and I h=
ave only traced two of this AK-Plated coin. As with most Blackmsiths of Woo=
d 34-46 of a "BASTARD" type composition with this example composed of (12) =
different metals and appears to be a low tin (4.55%) bronze (Cu/Sn) cast (P=
b: 8.88 & 15.2%).
> > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > 2. George II Counterfeit 1/2d's. Most contain high bismuth re=
lecting Cornish Copper. At the time (1730-1750'ish) the Cornish Copper mine=
s were dominant with the Swansea Copper mines coming around in the 1780/179=
0's. The analysis confirmed this copper source for all types analyzed being=
Cornwall.
> > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > 3. Ryder 40: Confirmed as struck with 18thC copper. Jeff Rock=
melting dilemma? - hopefully we plan to do SEM/EDS comparions on these (5)=
coins: Ryder 40, a 1770 Cobwright pouch example, Vermont Ryder 5 Cast, Ryd=
er 25 and a V.13-88CT Machin Mills piece. See what happens. Microstructure =
(surface magnification), inorganic metal and organic profiles.
> > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > 4. GIII CC's - nothing special - same old 97-98% copper. Few =
impurities unlike American 18thC State Coppers.
> > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > 5. Ryder 5 - The lead value is of this coin was 1.42%. It doe=
s require more analysis. Cast bronze lead specimens have lead values which =
are very variable.
> > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > Hopefully some INTIAL signatures can be retrieved from this g=
roup when comparing Machins to English imports and seeing if Ryder 40 is a =
melt down job. On this point I think Jeff's arguments will remain unchallen=
ged as there are no references or data groups to confirm or deny this point=
. We can only compare Ryder 40 to these (4) other pieces and discuss the fi=
ndings - CAREFULLY.
> > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > In all (25) coins were analyzed including a 1773 GIII Baby Fa=
ce.
> > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > Byron - its not dead ... unfortunately we have not even scrat=
ched the surface ...
> > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > JPL
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
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