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Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2012 16:27:44 -0700 (PDT)
To: "colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com" <colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com>
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From: Paul Cartmill <cartmill_paul@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: Paul Cartmill <cartmill_paul@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Re: Image help
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LMFAO........!
From: Jeff Rock <rosaamltd@gmail.com>
To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com=20
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2012 4:25:27 PM
Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Re: Image help
=C2=A0=20
Paul, I don't think the bucket had anything in it by the time I got there!=
=C2=A0 They said something about selling them all to someone named Palmer i=
n the US....
On Wed, Oct 10, 2012 at 12:06 PM, Paul Cartmill <cartmill_paul@yahoo.com> w=
rote:=20
=C2=A0=20
>Jeff ,Welcome=C2=A0home i look forward helping you sort through that bucke=
t of 50P cfts
>paul
>
>
>From: Jeff Rock <rosaamltd@gmail.com>
>To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com=20
>Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2012 10:42:51 AM
>Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Re: Image help
>
>=C2=A0=20
>Oliver, just got back into town yesterday -- do you still need these image=
s or have you found some to use? If so, let me know and I will email you a =
few privately!
>
>Jeff
>
>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 1:30 PM, colonialjohn <johnmenc@optonline.net> wro=
te:=20
>=C2=A0=20
>>The History of Sheffield Plate by Henry Newton Veitch. Silver plating of =
copper was happening it seems a century or slightly longer than 1740. It wa=
s perfected in 1740 or so by the inventor of Sheffield plate which brought =
it into the limelight. It seems the earlier forms of Sheffield or this Ag/C=
u fusing was not as advanced or durable. This explains this coin - possibly=
. A pre-1740 coin with Ag/Cu not being properly heated and worked hence its=
major fall-out from the coin's surface. Its quite rare to see a 19thC Port=
rait CC8R have silver fall-out of this magnitude - of several hundred Sheff=
ield CC8R's maybe less than a half dozen has been seen by me with any degre=
e of fall-out even close to this Charles II piece ... this book is free on-=
line. So I will call this pre 1740 Ag/Cu Sheffield Plate ... <BG>.For Greek=
fourrees:http://www.forumancientcoins.com/dougsmith/fourreeg.htmlDoes anyb=
ody have any for analysis?JPL=20
>>--- In mailto:colonial-coins%40yahoogroups.com, "colonialjohn" <johnmenc@=
...> wrote:>> HMMM ... silver foil over a debased alloy ... this may explai=
n my Charles II piece ... a different process? ... the silver level by the =
way on this piece was 97.5% so with the L.Beck silver surface enrichment sc=
enario it seems it was near a sterling Ag level ... be curious if the Ag va=
lues of foil over these Greek pieces. See if anybody knows of any study ...=
possibly Oddy in the Metallurgy in Numismatics series ... sold mine with m=
y library ... Craddock explains gold increses in percentage with the presen=
ce of Ag as we go back in time due to refining methods ... the surface XRF =
Au level in this piece was 0.20%. Which is high ... we expect universal lev=
els below 0.1% or lower in 19thC Sheffield CC8R's ... a time marker if you =
will ... and in many ways a contemporary counterfeit diagnostic in high Ag =
contemporaries ... trace Au ... > > >=20
>>> --- In mailto:colonial-coins%40yahoogroups.com, "Oliver D. Hoover" <oli=
ver.hoover@> wrote:> >> > Thanks, John. > > > > Unfortunately, I am only de=
aling with Hellenistic Greek counterfeits. None of these involve washes, bu=
t rather silver foil over a bronze core. My interest in the English counter=
feit coppers stems not from any technical aspect, but from the fact that th=
e absence of regular official coins essentially invited counterfeiters to f=
ill the void and created an environment in which people essentially had to =
accept them. I can show that the same sort of thing happened in antiquity a=
s well.> > > > Oliver> > > > On Sep 19, 2012, at 10:51 AM, colonialjohn wro=
te:> > > > > I would show a Roman silver wash CC coin and a Kleeberg CC2R s=
ilver wash coin and explain that both still exhibit Hg/Ag amalgamation as t=
he main process creating these types of counterfeits and that silver platin=
g is a physical process like the Sheffields in CC8Rs which is simply
a physical fusion of two metals at the interface without any outside forei=
gn metals being introduced in that process unlike silver washing . I have n=
ot investigated if Hg amalgamation has gone further back to Greek coinage .=
.. I recently picked up a Charless II Hammered G.B. Halfcrown that was silv=
er plated over copper which is diagnsotic as a Sheffield CC8R ... normally =
in this period we may see silver wash or billon (debased silver alloy) but =
seeing Sheffield process this far back is interesting ...> > > > > > Histor=
y says: The material was accidentally invented by Thomas Boulsover, of Shef=
field's Cutlers Company, in 1743. While trying to repair the handle of a cu=
stomer's decorative knife, he heated it too much and the silver started to =
melt. When he examined the damaged handle, he noticed that the silver and c=
opper had fused together very strongly. Experiments showed that the two met=
als behaved as one when he tried to reshape them, even though he
could clearly see two different layers.> > > > > > Boulsover set up in bus=
iness, funded by Strelley Pegge of Beauchief, and carried out further exper=
iments in which he put a thin sheet of silver on a thick ingot of copper an=
d heated the two together to fuse them. When the composite block was hammer=
ed or rolled to make it thinner, the two metals were reduced in thickness a=
t similar rates. Using this method, Boulsover was able to make sheets of me=
tal which had a thin layer of silver on the top surface and a thick layer o=
f copper underneath. When this new material was used to make buttons, they =
looked and behaved like silver buttons but were a fraction of the cost.> > =
> > > > This circa 1660-1685 cut down coin may have been made after 1743? o=
r before 1743? It's half a century ... an incredible piece ... > > > > > > =
See here:> > > > > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/350598247881?ssPageName=3DSTRK=
:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=3Dp3984.m1439.l2649> > > > > > JPL> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > --- In mailto:colonial-coins%40yahoogroups.com, "Oli=
ver D. Hoover" <oliver.hoover@> wrote:> > >> > > >> I have to give a presen=
tation on ancient counterfeiting and use the case of 18th century England t=
o show how lack of coinage tends to attract counterfeits and imitations. Fo=
r illustration I think I should include an image of a nice but typical (I l=
ove Peck zz but it is probably a little over the top for my audience) count=
erfeit halfpenny and an evasion copper with pseudo-royal devices. If anyone=
has good ones that I could use, with credit, I would greatly appreciate it=
. > > >> > > >> Thanks in advance.> > >> > > >> Oliver> > >> > > > > > > > =
> > > > > > > > ------------------------------------> > > > > > Yahoo! Grou=
ps Links> > > > > > > > > > > >> >>
---1211669884-146637221-1349911664=:52779
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<html><body><div style=3D"color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:ar=
ial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12pt"><div style=3D"RIGHT: auto"><SPAN=
style=3D"RIGHT: auto">LMFAO........!<VAR id=3Dyui-ie-cursor></VAR><BR styl=
e=3D"RIGHT: auto" class=3Dyui-cursor></SPAN></div>
<div><BR></div>
<DIV style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<DIV style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SI=
ZE: 12pt">
<DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT size=3D2 face=3DArial>
<DIV style=3D"BORDER-BOTTOM: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; P=
ADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; LINE-HEIGHT: 0; MARGIN: 5px 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PAD=
DING-RIGHT: 0px; HEIGHT: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 0px; BORDER-TOP: #ccc 1px solid; B=
ORDER-RIGHT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-TOP: 0px" class=3Dhr readonly=3D"true"=
contenteditable=3D"false"></DIV><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:=
</SPAN></B> Jeff Rock <rosaamltd@gmail.com><BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT=
-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com <BR><B><SPAN s=
tyle=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Wednesday, October 10, 2012 4:2=
5:27 PM<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [Co=
lonial Numismatics] Re: Image help<BR></FONT></DIV><WBR>
<DIV id=3Dyiv1658433020>
<DIV><SPAN style=3D"DISPLAY: none"> </SPAN>=20
<DIV id=3Dyiv1658433020ygrp-text>
<div>Paul, I don't think the bucket had anything in it by the time I got th=
ere! They said something about selling them all to someone named Palm=
er in the US....<BR><BR>
<DIV class=3Dyiv1658433020gmail_quote>On Wed, Oct 10, 2012 at 12:06 PM, Pau=
l Cartmill <SPAN dir=3Dltr><<A href=3D"mailto:cartmill_paul@yahoo.com" r=
el=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank ymailto=3D"mailto:cartmill_paul@yahoo.com">ca=
rtmill_paul@yahoo.com</A>></SPAN> wrote:<WBR>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid" class=3Dyiv16=
58433020gmail_quote><U></U>
<DIV><SPAN> </SPAN>=20
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<DIV><SPAN>Jeff ,Welcome home i look forward helping you sort through =
that bucket of 50P cfts</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN>paul<VAR></VAR></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<DIV style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SI=
ZE: 12pt">
<DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3DArial>
<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 0px"></DIV><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Fr=
om:</SPAN></B> Jeff Rock <<A href=3D"mailto:rosaamltd@gmail.com" rel=3Dn=
ofollow target=3D_blank ymailto=3D"mailto:rosaamltd@gmail.com">rosaamltd@gm=
ail.com</A>><BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> <A h=
ref=3D"mailto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com" rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blan=
k ymailto=3D"mailto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com">colonial-coins@yahoogro=
ups.com</A> <BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Wedne=
sday, October 10, 2012 10:42:51 AM<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">=
Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Re: Image help<BR></FONT></D=
IV><U></U>
<DIV>
<DIV><SPAN> </SPAN>=20
<DIV>
<DIV class=3Dyiv1658433020im>
<DIV>Oliver, just got back into town yesterday -- do you still need these i=
mages or have you found some to use? If so, let me know and I will email yo=
u a few privately!<BR></DIV>
<DIV>Jeff<U></U><BR></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=3Dyiv1658433020im>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 1:30 PM, colonialjohn =
<SPAN dir=3Dltr><<A href=3D"mailto:johnmenc@optonline.net" rel=3Dnofollo=
w target=3D_blank ymailto=3D"mailto:johnmenc@optonline.net">johnmenc@optonl=
ine.net</A>></SPAN> wrote:<U></U> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid"><U></U>
<DIV><SPAN> </SPAN>=20
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=3Dyiv1658433020im>The History of Sheffield Plate by Henry Newton=
Veitch. Silver plating of copper was happening it seems a century or sligh=
tly longer than 1740. It was perfected in 1740 or so by the inventor of She=
ffield plate which brought it into the limelight. It seems the earlier form=
s of Sheffield or this Ag/Cu fusing was not as advanced or durable. This ex=
plains this coin - possibly. A pre-1740 coin with Ag/Cu not being properly =
heated and worked hence its major fall-out from the coin's surface. Its qui=
te rare to see a 19thC Portrait CC8R have silver fall-out of this magnitude=
- of several hundred Sheffield CC8R's maybe less than a half dozen has bee=
n seen by me with any degree of fall-out even close to this Charles II piec=
e ... this book is free on-line. So I will call this pre 1740 Ag/Cu Sheffie=
ld Plate ... <BG>.<WBR>For Greek fourrees:<WBR><A href=3D"http://www.=
forumancientcoins.com/dougsmith/fourreeg.html" rel=3Dnofollow
target=3D_blank>http://www.forumancientcoins.com/dougsmith/fourreeg.html</=
A><WBR>Does anybody have any for analysis?<WBR><WBR>JPL <WBR></DIV>
<DIV>--- In <A href=3D"mailto:colonial-coins%40yahoogroups.com" rel=3Dnofol=
low target=3D_blank ymailto=3D"mailto:colonial-coins%40yahoogroups.com">mai=
lto:colonial-coins%40yahoogroups.com</A>, "colonialjohn" <johnmenc@...&g=
t; wrote:<U></U>><U></U>> HMMM ... silver foil over a debased alloy .=
.. this may explain my Charles II piece ... a different process? ... the si=
lver level by the way on this piece was 97.5% so with the L.Beck silver sur=
face enrichment scenario it seems it was near a sterling Ag level ... be cu=
rious if the Ag values of foil over these Greek pieces. See if anybody know=
s of any study ... possibly Oddy in the Metallurgy in Numismatics series ..=
. sold mine with my library ... Craddock explains gold increses in percenta=
ge with the presence of Ag as we go back in time due to refining methods ..=
. the surface XRF Au level in this piece was 0.20%. Which is high ... we ex=
pect universal levels below 0.1% or lower in 19thC Sheffield CC8R's ... a
time marker if you will ... and in many ways a contemporary counterfeit di=
agnostic in high Ag contemporaries ... trace Au ... <U></U>> <U></U>>=
<U></U>> <U></U></DIV>
<DIV>> --- In <A href=3D"mailto:colonial-coins%40yahoogroups.com" rel=3D=
nofollow target=3D_blank ymailto=3D"mailto:colonial-coins%40yahoogroups.com=
">mailto:colonial-coins%40yahoogroups.com</A>, "Oliver D. Hoover" <olive=
r.hoover@> wrote:<U></U>> ><U></U>> > Thanks, John. <U></U>&=
gt; > <U></U>> > Unfortunately, I am only dealing with Hellenistic=
Greek counterfeits. None of these involve washes, but rather silver foil o=
ver a bronze core. My interest in the English counterfeit coppers stems not=
from any technical aspect, but from the fact that the absence of regular o=
fficial coins essentially invited counterfeiters to fill the void and creat=
ed an environment in which people essentially had to accept them. I can sho=
w that the same sort of thing happened in antiquity as well.<U></U>> >=
; <U></U>> > Oliver<U></U>> > <U></U>> > On Sep 19, 2012,=
at 10:51 AM, colonialjohn wrote:<U></U>> > <U></U>> > > I
would show a Roman silver wash CC coin and a Kleeberg CC2R silver wash coi=
n and explain that both still exhibit Hg/Ag amalgamation as the main proces=
s creating these types of counterfeits and that silver plating is a physica=
l process like the Sheffields in CC8Rs which is simply a physical fusion of=
two metals at the interface without any outside foreign metals being intro=
duced in that process unlike silver washing . I have not investigated if Hg=
amalgamation has gone further back to Greek coinage ... I recently picked =
up a Charless II Hammered G.B. Halfcrown that was silver plated over copper=
which is diagnsotic as a Sheffield CC8R ... normally in this period we may=
see silver wash or billon (debased silver alloy) but seeing Sheffield proc=
ess this far back is interesting ...<U></U>> > > <U></U>> > =
> History says: The material was accidentally invented by Thomas Boulsov=
er, of Sheffield's Cutlers Company, in 1743. While trying to repair
the handle of a customer's decorative knife, he heated it too much and the=
silver started to melt. When he examined the damaged handle, he noticed th=
at the silver and copper had fused together very strongly. Experiments show=
ed that the two metals behaved as one when he tried to reshape them, even t=
hough he could clearly see two different layers.<U></U>> > > <U></=
U>> > > Boulsover set up in business, funded by Strelley Pegge of =
Beauchief, and carried out further experiments in which he put a thin sheet=
of silver on a thick ingot of copper and heated the two together to fuse t=
hem. When the composite block was hammered or rolled to make it thinner, th=
e two metals were reduced in thickness at similar rates. Using this method,=
Boulsover was able to make sheets of metal which had a thin layer of silve=
r on the top surface and a thick layer of copper underneath. When this new =
material was used to make buttons, they looked and behaved like
silver buttons but were a fraction of the cost.<U></U>> > > <U></=
U>> > > This circa 1660-1685 cut down coin may have been made afte=
r 1743? or before 1743? It's half a century ... an incredible piece ... <U>=
</U>> > > <U></U>> > > See here:<U></U>> > > <U>=
</U>> > > <A href=3D"http://www.ebay.com/itm/350598247881?ssPageNa=
me=3DSTRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=3Dp3984.m1439.l2649" rel=3Dnofollow target=
=3D_blank>http://www.ebay.com/itm/350598247881?ssPageName=3DSTRK:MEWNX:IT&a=
mp;_trksid=3Dp3984.m1439.l2649</A><U></U>> > > <U></U>> > &g=
t; JPL<U></U>> > > <U></U>> > > <U></U>> > > <U>=
</U>> > > <U></U>> > > <U></U>> > > <U></U>> =
> > --- In <A href=3D"mailto:colonial-coins%40yahoogroups.com" rel=3D=
nofollow target=3D_blank ymailto=3D"mailto:colonial-coins%40yahoogroups.com=
">mailto:colonial-coins%40yahoogroups.com</A>, "Oliver D. Hoover" <olive=
r.hoover@>
wrote:<U></U>> > >> <U></U>> > >> I have to give a=
presentation on ancient counterfeiting and use the case of 18th century En=
gland to show how lack of coinage tends to attract counterfeits and imitati=
ons. For illustration I think I should include an image of a nice but typic=
al (I love Peck zz but it is probably a little over the top for my audience=
) counterfeit halfpenny and an evasion copper with pseudo-royal devices. If=
anyone has good ones that I could use, with credit, I would greatly apprec=
iate it. <U></U>> > >> <U></U>> > >> Thanks in adva=
nce.<U></U>> > >> <U></U>> > >> Oliver<U></U>> &=
gt; >> <U></U>> > > <U></U>> > > <U></U>> > &=
gt; <U></U>> > > <U></U>> > > ---------------------------=
---------<U></U>> > > <U></U>> > > Yahoo! Groups Links<U>=
</U>> > > <U></U>> > > <U></U>> > >
<U></U>> > ><U></U>> ><U></U>><U></U><U></U></DIV></DIV>
<DIV style=3D"COLOR: rgb(255,255,255)"></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></BLOC=
KQUOTE></DIV><U></U></DIV></DIV></DIV><U></U><U></U></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV=
>
<DIV style=3D"COLOR: rgb(255,255,255)"></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE=
></DIV><WBR></DIV></DIV></DIV><WBR><WBR></DIV></DIV></div></body></html>
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