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From njraywms@optonline.net Tue Jan 01 07:45:08 2013
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From: Ray Williams <njraywms@optonline.net>
Subject: Happy New Year!
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Byron,
Well thought out summary. You and Mike Ringo were well ahead of your time. The counterfeit halfpence played an important part in our colonial economy. The Evasions and Conders were of little significance on this side of the Atlantic, but as you say - the die linking of these to certain counterfeit families have important things to tell us about the origin of certain counterfeits. Although not "American Colonials", the Conders and Evasions are historically important for the time period, and a very fun series to collect and study.
With collecting and studying counterfeits, there seems to be a core of collectors, on the Yahoo study groups, that are making excellent progress. They seem to beat each other up on the prices of counterfeits and have unknowingly set the market value by doing so. But few outside this group collect counterfeits by variety or family. The average colonial collector might pursue a few as type coins for his/her collection. With the exception of St Patrick's coinage, the hobby seems to have little mass enthusiasm for a coinage until there is a book on the topic. And with the St Patrick's... there was collecting excitement due to the serious study of Griffee & Stephens and the promise of a book.
Thinking about St Patrick's, there is a serious book in the works and I know that it will be the reference for this series for generations to come Even so, I would still like to see Stan publish the work he and John Griffee had done - just for the historical direction they were taking, and so that what they had done is not lost to history. It would be like the ANS publishing Damon Douglas's unpublished NJ Copper notes from the 1940's and 50's. Douglas was a serious researcher who searched out original documentation and made serious discoveries that no one had known. Although published by the ANS in 2004, when much of the information was public knowledge, the book credited the man for his wonderful accomplishments for the hobby that would have otherwise gone unnoticed. Jacob Spiro also has done wonderful research and hopefully someday he will get the credit.
For those that had never met John Griffee, his enthusiasm and drive was contagious! I believe that most NJ Copper collectors that have been around since the early 90s were either attracted to NJs by John personally or through his Penny Wise "Condition Census". When his NJ Collection was sold in the First C4 Auction in 1995, John's enthusiasm for studying St Patrick's, and the goal of a book, had brought this series to the forefront. I can't wait for the book currently being written to be published an I hope Stan can publish their original pioneering work, for posterity.
Must run - just invited for food - one of the weaknesses I have.
Happy New Year to All!
Ray

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Byron" <bkw11@psu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2013 9:43 AM
To: <colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: Fw: [Colonial Numismatics] Higley Fourpence

> Thanks for the feedback, Jeff.
>
> My interested in counterfeit halfpence began with a single British counterfeit and grew mostly because Schwer and a few other British dealers were able and willing to send them to me in some quantity. I also was able to pick them up at shows in some quantity, but of course that was long before they became "popular." You can still find them but nearly as much as you could have in the late 80s and early 90s.
> My interest in Evasions was sparked mostly because of Schwer and Mike Ringo offering several on their lists, which in turn led to me looking at them and counterfeits as different Families. I'm probably the only collector who originally looked at and considered the Atlee counterfeits as just another Family of counterfeits, and I still do. They simply linked to American state coinages, where several of the British counterfeit Families likely linked to the British Evasions. It was simple logic until I started writing about them, then it became something of a numismatic "political football" for me to have so publicly doubted the provenance of certain varieties.
> Anyway, I consider those exploits pretty much history now and have come to realize that some of the earlier ideas about provenance are likely to die with the current generation of collectors as I was at least able to plant a different idea or way of looking at things into the numismatic psyche. Even if I hadn't someone else would have likely stumbled across the Evasion connection before too many people started buying and selling Simians and other British counterfeits as "American" and trans-atlantic mules.<s>
>
> I don't think the next generation of collectors will be so obsessed with provenance, trying to figure out how they can give coins they collect an American flavor or provenance, when it's really much simpler than that.
>
> Byron
>
>
>
> --- In colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Rock <rosaamltd@...> wrote:
>>
>> You value it as any other contemporary counterfeit -- based on the interest
>> in whatever country it is from (at least until someone makes a case for
>> making it American, in which case the value goes up). There are a LOT of
>> counterfeits that probably circulated here -- some of the crudest
>> Netherlands pieces probably ended up somewhere in America, eventually, but
>> they are valued in the double digits, not the triple or quadruple ones. If
>> your piece is just a regular, somewhat crude counterfeit, in a series that
>> has known counterfeits, you value it according to what others brought. If
>> yours actually shares the same exact die with the GT mule, then it's value
>> is significantly higher. But just because one die has ties to an American
>> issue doesn't mean that all dies do -- you know that, it's like explaining
>> the difference between an Atlee and a counterfeit British halfpence! <g>
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 6:57 AM, Byron <bkw11@...> wrote:
>>
>> > **
>> >
>> >
>> > Hi Jeff,
>> >
>> > I haven't even made an offer on it yet, Jeff, but I certainly don't intend
>> > to pay as much as I did for my lone Detroit Mint piece!<s>
>> >
>> > I guess what I'm up in the air about is the brass 24 skilling piece, which
>> > I have no problem calling a problem free XF. Since it isn't in the Redbook
>> > or Whitman, yet, how do you value such a coin?!
>> >
>> > Byron
>> >
>> >
>> > --- In colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Rock <rosaamltd@> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > Sadly Byron's piece isn't quite crude enough to be a Mario issue! But I
>> > > don't see anything that screams "US Colonial" about it -- for all I know
>> > it
>> > > could be a German rifle check token or some other area that I know
>> > > absolutely nothing about The trouble is that I wouldn't even know where
>> > to
>> > > start searching for what it truly is. Byron's a smart guy, so I know he
>> > > didn't pay a lot of money for the piece just because someone called it a
>> > > colonial, so I'm not too worried about his financial reward!
>> > >
>> > > On Sun, Dec 30, 2012 at 2:52 PM, <books@> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > **
>> >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > Byron, Ray brings up an interesting point. Here's a contemporary
>> > > > counterfeit Higley (joking) that may be a companion to your 4d. Will
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > > Byron,
>> > > > > Those leaves around the periphery of the coin are very reminiscent of
>> > > > > some Canadian Token. Maybe the rest was engraved...
>> > > > > Ray
>> > > > >
>> > > > > --------------------------------------------------
>> > > > >
>> > > > From: "Byron Weston" <bkw11@>
>> >
>> > > > > Sent: Friday, December 28, 2012 10:20 AM
>> > > > > To: <colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com>
>> > > > > Subject: [Colonial Numismatics] Higley Fourpence
>> > > > >
>> > > > >> I found the images of the Higley fourpence - attached.
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >> In hand, and in the metal, it appears to have been struck or perhaps
>> > > > >> engraved over another coin with miniscule vestiges of the undertype
>> > > > >> visible within and around the roman numeral. Composition seems to be
>> > > > very
>> > > > >> similar to the 24 skilling piece it came with but it is much
>> > thinner and
>> > > > >> of a smaller diameter.
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >> Byron
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >> ------------------------------------
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >> Yahoo! Groups Links
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

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<DIV>Byron, Well thought out
summary. You and Mike Ringo were well ahead of your time. The
counterfeit halfpence played an important part in our colonial economy.
The Evasions and Conders were of little significance on this side of the
Atlantic, but as you say - the die linking of these to certain counterfeit
families have important things to tell us about the origin of certain
counterfeits. Although not "American Colonials", the Conders and Evasions
are historically important for the time period, and a very fun series to collect
and study. With collecting and studying counterfeits,
there seems to be a core of collectors, on the Yahoo study groups, that are
making excellent progress. They seem to beat each other up on the prices
of counterfeits and have unknowingly set the market value by doing so. But
few outside this group collect counterfeits by variety or family. The
average colonial collector might pursue a few as type coins for his/her
collection. With the exception of St Patrick's coinage, the hobby seems to
have little mass enthusiasm for a coinage until there is a book on the
topic. And with the St Patrick's... there was collecting excitement
due to the serious study of Griffee & Stephens and the promise of a
book. Thinking about St Patrick's, there is a
serious book in the works and I know that it will be the reference for this
series for generations to come. Even so, I would still like to see Stan
publish the work he and John Griffee had done - just for the historical
direction they were taking, and so that what they had done is not lost to
history. It would be like the ANS publishing Damon Douglas's unpublished
NJ Copper notes from the 1940's and 50's. Douglas was a serious researcher
who searched out original documentation and made serious discoveries that no one
had known. Although published by the ANS in 2004, when much of the
information was public knowledge, the book credited the man for his wonderful
accomplishments for the hobby that would have otherwise gone unnoticed.
Jacob Spiro also has done wonderful research and hopefully someday he will get
the credit. For those that had never met John Griffee, his
enthusiasm and drive was contagious! I believe that most NJ Copper
collectors that have been around since the early 90s were either attracted to
NJs by John personally or through his Penny Wise "Condition Census". When
his NJ Collection was sold in the First C4 Auction in 1995, John's enthusiasm
for studying St Patrick's, and the goal of a book, had brought this series to
the forefront. I can't wait for the book currently being written to be
published an I hope Stan can publish their original pioneering work, for
posterity. Must run - just invited for food - one of the
weaknesses I have. Happy New Year to
All! Ray</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> -------------------------------------------------- From: "Byron"
<<A title="mailto:bkw11@psu.edu CTRL + Click to follow link"
href="mailto:bkw11@psu.edu">bkw11@psu.edu</A>> Sent: Tuesday, January 01,
2013 9:43 AM To: <<A
href="mailto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com">colonial-coins@yahoogroups..com</A>> Subject:
Re: Fw: [Colonial Numismatics] Higley Fourpence</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>> Thanks for the feedback, Jeff. > > My interested in
counterfeit halfpence began with a single British counterfeit and grew mostly
because Schwer and a few other British dealers were able and willing to send
them to me in some quantity. I also was able to pick them up at shows in some
quantity, but of course that was long before they became "popular." You can
still find them but nearly as much as you could have in the late 80s and early
90s. > My interest in Evasions was sparked mostly because of Schwer and
Mike Ringo offering several on their lists, which in turn led to me looking at
them and counterfeits as different Families. I'm probably the only collector who
originally looked at and considered the Atlee counterfeits as just another
Family of counterfeits, and I still do. They simply linked to American state
coinages, where several of the British counterfeit Families likely linked to the
British Evasions. It was simple logic until I started writing about them, then
it became something of a numismatic "political football" for me to have so
publicly doubted the provenance of certain varieties. > Anyway, I consider
those exploits pretty much history now and have come to realize that some of the
earlier ideas about provenance are likely to die with the current generation of
collectors as I was at least able to plant a different idea or way of looking at
things into the numismatic psyche. Even if I hadn't someone else would have
likely stumbled across the Evasion connection before too many people started
buying and selling Simians and other British counterfeits as "American" and
trans-atlantic mules.<s> > > I don't think the next
generation of collectors will be so obsessed with provenance, trying to figure
out how they can give coins they collect an American flavor or provenance, when
it's really much simpler than that. > > Byron > >
 > > --- In <A
href="mailto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com">colonial-coins@yahoogroups..com</A>,
Jeff Rock <rosaamltd@...> wrote: >> >> You value it as
any other contemporary counterfeit -- based on the interest >> in
whatever country it is from (at least until someone makes a case for >>
making it American, in which case the value goes up). There are a LOT
of >> counterfeits that probably circulated here -- some of the
crudest >> Netherlands pieces probably ended up somewhere in America,
eventually, but >> they are valued in the double digits, not the triple
or quadruple ones. If >> your piece is just a regular, somewhat
crude counterfeit, in a series that >> has known counterfeits, you
value it according to what others brought. If >> yours actually
shares the same exact die with the GT mule, then it's value >> is
significantly higher. But just because one die has ties to an
American >> issue doesn't mean that all dies do -- you know that, it's
like explaining >> the difference between an Atlee and a counterfeit
British halfpence! <g> >> >> On Mon, Dec 31, 2012
at 6:57 AM, Byron <bkw11@...> wrote: >> >> >
** >> > >> > >> > Hi Jeff, >>
> >> > I haven't even made an offer on it yet, Jeff, but I
certainly don't intend >> > to pay as much as I did for my lone
Detroit Mint piece!<s> >> > >> > I guess what I'm
up in the air about is the brass 24 skilling piece, which >> > I
have no problem calling a problem free XF. Since it isn't in the
Redbook >> > or Whitman, yet, how do you value such a
coin?! >> > >> > Byron >> > >>
> >> > --- In <A
href="mailto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com">colonial-coins@yahoogroups..com</A>,
Jeff Rock <rosaamltd@> wrote: >> > > >> > >
Sadly Byron's piece isn't quite crude enough to be a Mario issue! But
I >> > > don't see anything that screams "US Colonial" about it
-- for all I know >> > it >> > > could be a German
rifle check token or some other area that I know >> > >
absolutely nothing about The trouble is that I wouldn't even know
where >> > to >> > > start searching for what it
truly is. Byron's a smart guy, so I know he >> > > didn't pay a
lot of money for the piece just because someone called it a >> >
> colonial, so I'm not too worried about his financial reward! >>
> > >> > > On Sun, Dec 30, 2012 at 2:52 PM, <books@>
wrote: >> > > >> > > > ** >>
> >> > > > >> > > > >> > >
> Byron, Ray brings up an interesting point. Here's a
contemporary >> > > > counterfeit Higley (joking) that may be
a companion to your 4d. Will >> > > > >> > >
> >> > > > >> > > > >
Byron, >> > > > > Those leaves around the periphery of the
coin are very reminiscent of >> > > > > some Canadian
Token. Maybe the rest was engraved... >> > > > >
Ray >> > > > > >> > > > >
-------------------------------------------------- >> > > >
> >> > > > From: "Byron Weston" <bkw11@> >>
> >> > > > > Sent: Friday, December 28, 2012 10:20
AM >> > > > > To: <<A
href="mailto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com">colonial-coins@yahoogroups..com</A>> >>
> > > > Subject: [Colonial Numismatics] Higley Fourpence >>
> > > > >> > > > >> I found the images of
the Higley fourpence - attached. >> > > > >> >>
> > > >> In hand, and in the metal, it appears to have been
struck or perhaps >> > > > >> engraved over another coin
with miniscule vestiges of the undertype >> > > > >>
visible within and around the roman numeral. Composition seems to be >>
> > > very >> > > > >> similar to the 24
skilling piece it came with but it is much >> > thinner
and >> > > > >> of a smaller diameter. >> >
> > >> >> > > > >> Byron >> >
> > >> >> > > > >>
------------------------------------ >> > > >
>> >> > > > >> Yahoo! Groups Links >>
> > > >> >> > > > >> >> >
> > >> >> > > > >> >> > >
> > >> > > > >> > > > >> >
> > >> > > >> > >> >
 >> > >> > > > > >
------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups
Links > > <*> To visit your group on the web, go
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title="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/colonial-coins/ CTRL + Click to follow link"
href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/colonial-coins/">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/colonial-coins/</A> >
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