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Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2014 11:33:25 -0800
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From: Jeff Rock <rosaamltd@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] JPL Recommendations: Best Buys for 2014:
TOP 10 List
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Alan, home runs ARE rare, but they do happen -- some people like Ringo got
one every few months. Others get one a lifetime. But I have yet to meet a
collector who has done this hobby for a few decades -- AND who invested the
time to actually learn about things, how to attribute, memorized what
certain rarities looked like, grade, detect counterfeits, etc. -- who
hasn't eventually found The One Coin That Made it All Worthwhile. You can
call it coincidence or good luck or simple probability over time -- but I
think of it as Coin Karma -- the coin gods are glad someone is spending
time to study and learn and they reward you appropriately! <g>
On Thu, Jan 2, 2014 at 11:21 AM, <johnmenc@optonline.net> wrote:
>
>
> Bill Anton told me a great story once - when he started to collect
> colonials ... back in the late 50's when he started there was maybe12
> serious/semi-serious collectors ... it simply went down the food chain of
> say no more than a dozen collectors ... if #1 did not want it ... it went
> to #2 and so on based on purse/political ties even in this small group an=
d
> collecting preferences ... imagine just (12) collectors for this entire
> front of Colonials ... one of my favorite stories I recall is when I
> discovered a NJ Collection of 70 varieties ... it was a dentist who
> contacted me who was interested in selling and/or getting their current
> worth/appraisal ... I saw the collection and it had a M.21-O and M.19-M i=
n
> VF condition and most others were F-VF but many with choice surfaces. I h=
ad
> no interest and he would have sold the collection to me for around
> $75/coin. I had Bill come over to look at it as we did each other favors =
at
> this time ... he bought it intact ... he asked me ... John ... you sure y=
ou
> don't want any pieces for $55/coin ... he did pay $75/coin ... Bill how
> many times do you want me to tell you ... I own all the varieties in this
> collection ... pass it on ... when a DW of Boston heard the story ... he
> FLIPPED ... John ... DO THE MATH! ... John ... DO THE MATH. Please contac=
t
> me next time!
>
>
> I guess the other story was the 1952 ANA ONE LOT hoard - intact - that wa=
s
> a different buying scenario for JPL <VVBG>. It was never greed ... at tim=
es
> I just asked myself one question ... when are these Large Cent jackasses
> ever going to wake -up on what the real deal is in collecting U.S. Copper=
?
> Really ...
>
>
>
>
> ---In colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com, <rosaamltd@...> wrote:
>
> Well said, Dave! Anyone looking to make a huge profit in colonial coins
> immediately may as well throw their money out the window -- it happens
> about as often as winning the lottery. But a collection formed over year=
s,
> preferably over decades, formed with intelligence and care will just abou=
t
> always do well for the collector when it is sold. Yes, there will be som=
e
> mistake purchases -- things we overpaid for, got suckered into buying,
> things that went down in rarity or we misattributed or whatever -- but th=
e
> "home run" coins that every collector will eventually acquire will more
> than make up for those mistakes. Eric Newman is a wonderful example here =
--
> though having held his pieces for 70+ years he is certainly a bit of an
> outlier in the collecting spectrum. The portions of his collection that
> have been sold already were bought by him for under $7500. That was a
> significant amount of money at the time -- enough to buy a decent house a=
nd
> a car or two. They've sold for over $22 MILLION in the last year -- whic=
h
> will buy more than a few houses and cars! Eric didn't get the coins at
> bargain prices -- he paid a fair rate at the time, and picked his pieces
> wisely. He didn't have unlimited funds, so he did his research and used
> the money he had to buy the best (and most interesting) things he could.
> His Warren Buffett level of returns would suggest he did it the right way=
!
>
> I've always collected "against the grain" -- going after areas that were
> not very popular, but which had a lot of historical interest. I collecte=
d
> Washingtonia and Connecticut coppers from the late 1970's to the late
> 1980's -- an era where extreme rarities could be had for a few hundred
> dollars, and that was what I needed because the cash I had available for
> things was, at most, a few hundred dollars. I would not be able to affor=
d
> to collect those series right now, owning the same coins I did then ,
> because they are priced 25-50 times higher for the better things. I coul=
d
> still collect -- a set of VF-ish CT coppers for the R-1 to low R-7
> varieties is still very affordable, and one could easily get 200-250 or s=
o
> varieties....but the days of getting those R-8's (and cherry picking them=
!)
> are long gone for me. I moved from there to French Colonies pieces --
> another area that had little collector interest, especially in the decade
> before Bob Vlack's book was written. Blacksmiths were dirt cheap for the
> longest time, so I collected those. Counterfeits and evasions are still
> cheap, relative to the state coinages. Conder tokens are also very
> inexpensive for pieces that have such a history and level of collector
> interest. While I have no plans of selling my collections anytime soon,=
I
> suspect that when I do, I will come out ahead overall -- lose money on so=
me
> things, make it on others. But even if I end up taking a loss on
> everything, I will have had several decades of sheer enjoyment from my
> hobby. I will have learned about people, places and events I may have nev=
er
> heard about. I got to keep active, especially mentally, in the research
> and study of these fascinating areas. I got to travel to shows and to do
> research. I've met some wonderful people along the way. So even if I lo=
st
> some money in the process, I will have gained so much more that it would
> still have to rank as a successful investment just for the non-monetary
> things it brought to me.
>
> Jeff Rock
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 2, 2014 at 12:21 AM, <dmenchell@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> My recommendation would be to get whatever piques your interest in the
> best condition you can afford. That's how I put together my collections =
of
> State coppers, Washingtonia, U.S. tokens, Indian Trade Silver and every
> other thing I've collected, numismatic or not. I've rarely collected
> things because they're popular or fashionable, but often they've become
> more widely collected after a period of time and usually for more money.
> Not all investments pay off nor do they necessarily make a good collectio=
n,
> but generally a collection carefully assembled will often turn out to be =
a
> good investment. That's because a collector will take the time to learn
> about what it is that he is buying and look for quality and rarity; an
> investor may acquire disparate pieces often on someone else's
> recommendation without developing a sense of value and a discerning eye.
>
> In a message dated 1/1/2014 4:01:02 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> johnmenc@... writes:
>
>
>
> 1. Kleeberg Counterfeit 2 Reales. No debased silver issues.
> 2. GNL Contemporary Counterfeit 8 Reales. Just Off-Metal Class 1 issues.
> 3. Canadian Blacksmith Coppers.
> 4. Vermont Coppers F-VF and VG-up for Landscapes only issues.
> 5. NJ Coppers Rarity 5/6 issues. Any grade. 1785 CTs - VF with good
> surfaces.
> 6. Rosa Americana Issues - any AU/UNC piece for any denomination. Buy raw
> - slab up.
> 7. Mexican War of Independence Issues (Countermark Issues, LVO & Vargas).
> Avoid ALL copper issues like SUD.
> 8. Contemporary Counterfeit Halfpence & Farthing Brockage Errors.
> 9. Isabel II Gold/Platinum or platinum CC Issues of Spain.
> 10. World Brockage Errors with the exception of India Brockages (too
> common).
>
> In no particular order - good luck in your collecting persuits!
>
>
>=20=20
>
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<div dir=3D"ltr">Alan, home runs ARE rare, but they do happen -- some peopl=
e like Ringo got one every few months.=A0 Others get one a lifetime.=A0 But=
I have yet to meet a collector who has done this hobby for a few decades -=
- AND who invested the time to actually learn about things, how to attribut=
e, memorized what certain rarities looked like, grade, detect counterfeits,=
etc. -- who hasn't eventually found The One Coin That Made it All Wort=
hwhile.=A0 You can call it coincidence or good luck or simple probability o=
ver time -- but I think of it as Coin Karma -- the coin gods are glad someo=
ne is spending time to=A0study and learn and they reward you appropriately!=
=A0 <g></div>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Jan 2=
, 2014 at 11:21 AM, <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:johnmenc@opton=
line.net" target=3D"_blank">johnmenc@optonline.net</a>></span> wrote:<br=
><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1=
px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<u></u>
<div>
<span>=A0</span>
<div>
<div>
<div>
=20=20=20=20=20=20
=20=20=20=20=20=20
<p><p>Bill Anton told me a great story once - when he started to coll=
ect colonials ... back in the late 50's when he started there was maybe=
12 serious/semi-serious collectors ... it simply went down the food chain o=
f say no more than a dozen collectors ... if #1 did not want it ... it went=
to #2 and so on based on purse/political ties even in this small group and=
collecting preferences ... imagine just (12) collectors for this entire fr=
ont of Colonials ... one of my favorite stories I recall is when I discover=
ed a NJ Collection of 70 varieties ... it was a dentist who contacted me wh=
o was interested in selling and/or getting their current worth/appraisal ..=
. I saw the collection and it had a M.21-O and M.19-M in VF condition and m=
ost others were F-VF but many with choice surfaces. I had no interest and h=
e would have sold the collection to me for around $75/coin. I had Bill come=
over to look at it as we did each other favors at this time ... he bought =
it intact ... he asked me ... John ... you sure you don't want any piec=
es for $55/coin ... he did pay $75/coin ... Bill how many times do you want=
me to tell you ... I own all the varieties in this collection ... pass it =
on ... when a DW of Boston heard the story ... he FLIPPED ... John ... DO T=
HE MATH! ... John ... DO THE MATH. Please contact me next time!</p>
<p><br></p><p style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,clean,sans-serif;font-si=
ze:13px;font-style:normal;background-color:transparent"> I guess the other =
story was the 1952 ANA ONE LOT hoard - intact - that was a different buying=
scenario for JPL <VVBG>. It was never greed ... at times I just aske=
d myself one question ... when are these Large Cent jackasses ever going to=
wake -up on what the real deal is in collecting U.S. Copper ? Really ...=
=A0 <br>
</p><p><br></p><div><br><br>---In <a href=3D"mailto:colonial-coins@yahoogro=
ups.com" target=3D"_blank">colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com</a>, <rosaamlt=
d@...> wrote:<br><br><div><div class=3D"im"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Well s=
aid, Dave!=A0 Anyone looking to make a huge profit in colonial coins immedi=
ately may as well throw their money out the window -- it happens about as o=
ften as winning the lottery.=A0 But a collection formed over years, prefera=
bly over decades, formed with intelligence and care will just about always =
do well for the collector when it is sold.=A0 Yes, there will be some mista=
ke purchases -- things we overpaid for, got suckered into buying, things th=
at went down in rarity or we misattributed or whatever -- but the "hom=
e run" coins that every collector will eventually acquire will more th=
an make up for those mistakes. Eric Newman is a wonderful example here -- t=
hough having held his pieces for 70+ years he is certainly a bit of an outl=
ier in the collecting spectrum.=A0 The portions of his collection that have=
been sold already were bought by him for under $7500.=A0 That was a signif=
icant amount of money at the time -- enough to buy a decent house and a car=
or two.=A0 They've sold for over $22 MILLION in the last year -- which=
will buy more than a few houses and cars!=A0 Eric didn't get the coins=
at bargain prices -- he paid a fair rate at the time, and picked his piece=
s wisely.=A0 He didn't have unlimited funds, so he did his research and=
used the money he had to buy the best (and most interesting) things he cou=
ld.=A0 His Warren Buffett level of returns would suggest he did it the righ=
t way!</div>
<div><br></div><div>I've always collected "against the grain"=
-- going after areas that were not very popular, but which had a lot of hi=
storical interest.=A0 I collected Washingtonia and Connecticut coppers from=
the late 1970's to the late 1980's -- an era where extreme raritie=
s could be had for a few hundred dollars, and that was what I needed becaus=
e the cash I had available for things was, at most, a few hundred dollars.=
=A0 I would not be able to afford to collect those series right now, owning=
the same coins I did then , because they are priced 25-50 times higher for=
the better things.=A0 I could still collect -- a set of VF-ish CT coppers =
for the R-1 to low R-7 varieties is still very affordable, and one could ea=
sily get 200-250 or so varieties....but the days of getting those R-8's=
(and cherry picking them!) are long gone for me.=A0 I moved from there to =
French Colonies pieces -- another area that had little collector interest, =
especially in the decade before Bob Vlack's book was written.=A0 Blacks=
miths were dirt cheap for the longest time, so I collected those.=A0 Counte=
rfeits and evasions are still cheap, relative to the state coinages.=A0 Con=
der tokens are also very inexpensive for pieces that have such a history an=
d level of collector interest.=A0=A0 While I have no plans of selling my co=
llections anytime soon, I suspect that when I do, I will come out ahead ove=
rall -- lose money on some things, make it on others.=A0 But even if I end =
up taking a loss on everything, I will have had several decades of sheer en=
joyment from my hobby. I will have learned about people, places and events =
I may have never heard about.=A0 I got to keep active, especially mentally,=
in the research and study of these fascinating areas.=A0 I got to travel t=
o shows and to do research.=A0 I've met some wonderful people along the=
way.=A0 So even if I lost some money in the process, I will have gained so=
much more that it would still have to rank as a successful investment just=
for the non-monetary things it brought to me.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Jeff Rock</div></div></div><div><br><br><blockquote><sp=
an> <div><div class=3D"im">On Thu, Jan 2, 2014 at 12:21 AM, <span dir=3D"l=
tr"><<a href=3D"mailto:dmenchell@..." target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nofollow"=
>dmenchell@...</a>></span> wrote:<br>
</div><blockquote style=3D"border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-w=
idth:1px;border-left-style:solid">
<u></u>
<div>
<span>=A0</span>
<div>
<div>
<div><div class=3D"im">
=20=20=20=20=20=20
=20=20=20=20=20=20
<p><u></u>
<font color=3D"#000000" face=3D"Arial">
</font></p><div><font color=3D"#000000" face=3D"Arial">My recommendation wo=
uld be to get whatever piques your interest in the best=20
condition you can afford.=A0 That's how I put together my collections o=
f=20
State coppers, Washingtonia, U.S. tokens, Indian Trade Silver and every oth=
er=20
thing I've collected, numismatic or not.=A0 I've rarely collected t=
hings=20
because they're popular or fashionable, but often they've become mo=
re widely=20
collected after a period of time and usually for more money.=A0 Not all=20
investments pay off nor do they necessarily make a good collection, but=20
generally a collection carefully assembled will often turn out to be a good=
=20
investment.=A0 That's because a collector will take the time to learn a=
bout=20
what it is that he is buying and look for quality and rarity; an investor m=
ay=20
acquire disparate pieces often on someone else's recommendation without=
=20
developing a sense of value and a discerning eye.=A0 </font></div></div><di=
v class=3D"im"><div><font color=3D"#000000" face=3D"Arial">
<div>=A0</div>
<div>
<div>In a message dated 1/1/2014 4:01:02 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,=20
<a href=3D"mailto:johnmenc@..." target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nofollow">johnmenc=
@...</a> writes:</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-left-color:blue;border-left-width:2px;border-le=
ft-style:solid"><font color=3D"#000000" face=3D"Arial" style=3D"background-=
color:transparent"><span>=A0</span>=20
<div>
<p>
</p><div><span>1. Kleeberg Counterfeit 2 Reales. No debased silver=20
issues.</span><br></div>
=20=20
<div>2. GNL Contemporary Counterfeit 8 Reales. Just Off-Metal Class 1=20
issues.</div>
<div>3. Canadian Blacksmith Coppers.</div>
<div>4. Vermont Coppers F-VF and VG-up for Landscapes only issues.</div>
<div>5. NJ Coppers Rarity 5/6 issues. Any grade. 1785 CTs - VF with good=
=20
surfaces.</div>
<div>6. Rosa Americana Issues - any AU/UNC piece for any denomination. Bu=
y raw=20
- slab up.</div>
<div>7. Mexican War of Independence Issues (Countermark Issues, LVO &=
=20
Vargas). Avoid ALL copper issues like SUD.</div>
<div>8. Contemporary Counterfeit Halfpence & Farthing Brockage=20
Errors.</div>
<div>9. Isabel II Gold/Platinum or platinum CC Issues of Spain.</div>
<div>10. World Brockage Errors with the exception of India Brockages (too=
=20
common).=A0</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>In no particular order - good luck in your collecting persuits!</div=
>
</div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(255,255,255)"></div></font></blockquote></div></f=
ont></div>
</div></div>
=20=20=20=20=20
=20=20=20=20
<div style=3D"color:rgb(255,255,255)"></div>
</div>
=20=20
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></span></blockquote></div>
</div></div><p></p>
</p></div>
=20=20=20=20=20
=20=20=20=20
<div style=3D"color:rgb(255,255,255);min-height:0px"></div>
</div>
=20=20
</blockquote></div><br></div>
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