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Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2015 23:10:09 -0500
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Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Lion Dollar Clipping
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Pretty sure that this one is counterfeit, but I don't remember the weight. �Will check next time I have it out.
Will
---------------------------- Original Message ----------------------------
Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Lion Dollar Clipping
From: "Ray Williams njraywms@optonline.net [colonial-coins]" <colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Sun, February 22, 2015 9:37 pm
To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Jeff,
> I have two counterfeits and i know Charlie R has a very nice one.
> Ray
>
>
> On 2/22/2015 8:07 PM, Rosa Americana rosaamltd@gmail.com
> [colonial-coins] wrote:
>>
>>
>> Syd, are any counterfeits?
>>
>> Jeff
>>
>> On Sun, Feb 22, 2015 at 4:53 PM, Bruce Smith bhsmith325@gmail.com
>> <mailto:bhsmith325@gmail.com> [colonial-coins]
>> <colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
>> <mailto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Thanks very much, Syd.
>>
>> The three for which I have date are: 1616 - 414.4 gn.
>> 1643 - 412.0 gn.
>> 1648 - 411.9 gn.
>>
>> I make the median of the coins in your collection to be 415.25
>> gn., so mine are just a few grains below. As the two that I don't
>> have weights for appear to be the least clipped, I should probably
>> take a hammer to the Lion and free them from their slabs.
>>
>> Bruce
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Feb 22, 2015 at 7:28 PM, Sydney Martin
>> sfmartin5@comcast.net <mailto:sfmartin5@comcast.net>
>> [colonial-coins] <colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
>> <mailto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com>> wrote:
>>
>> The following table is a list of Lion Daalders by date and
>> weight in my collection. This may be of interest:
>>
>>
>> Date Grains Wt.
>> 1576 423.2
>> 1589 412.3
>> 1598 415.2
>> 1604 420.4
>> 1616 417.6
>> 1617 415.2
>> 1629 419.6
>> 1629 413.6
>> 1631 409.6
>> 1633 415.1
>> 1634 417.0
>> 1637 419.8
>> 1640 421.3
>> 1640 413.6
>> 1642 417.0
>> 1643 415.3
>> 1647 403.7
>> 1648 372.7
>> 1648 414.1
>> 1650 420.2
>> 1657 410.0
>> 1668 422.0
>> 1676 415.1
>> ND 415.4
>>
>>
>>
>> Syd
>>
>>
>> On Feb 22, 2015, at 6:57 PM, Bruce Smith bhsmith325@gmail.com
>> <mailto:bhsmith325@gmail.com> [colonial-coins] wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Thanks, Paul, and thanks, Ray, for your suggestion. I suppose
>>> when it's all melted together, the .75 Lion Dollar clippings
>>> wouldn't make enough of a difference. I have two that are
>>> fairly round, but the others show at least some clipping.
>>> They are intriguing coins. I found a paper on Lion Dollar
>>> hordes found in Ottoman Palestine that is interesting. It's a
>>> free download
>>>
>>> https://www.academia
>>> <https://www.academia/>.edu/4424141/The_Circulation_of_Dutch_Leeuwendaalders_in_17th_Century_Ottoman_Palestine_New_Evidence_from_Two_Unpublished_Hoards_Jaarboek_voor_Munt_en_Penningkunde_89_2002_47_-68
>>>
>>> Bruce
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Feb 22, 2015 at 4:45 PM, Paul Cartmill
>>> cartmill_paul@yahoo.com <mailto:cartmill_paul@yahoo.com>
>>> [colonial-coins] <colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
>>> <mailto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> very nice Bruce, not the usual fare
>>> paul
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> *From:* "Bruce Smith bhsmith325@gmail.com
>>> <mailto:bhsmith325@gmail.com> [colonial-coins]"
>>> <colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
>>> <mailto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com>>
>>> *To:* colonial-coins <colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
>>> <mailto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com>>
>>> *Sent:* Sunday, February 22, 2015 8:43 AM
>>> *Subject:* [Colonial Numismatics] Lion Dollar
>>> Clipping [1 Attachment]
>>>
>>> The auction house described this 1643 Utrecht Lion
>>> Dollar as clipped. At 412.2 grains it is shy of the
>>> authorized 427.16, but I'm wondering if the 15 grain
>>> difference would account entirely for the
>>> appearance. Does anyone know how closely Lion Dollar
>>> planchets were monitored and how adjustments were
>>> made? I'm not sure what a heavy hammered coin like
>>> this would look like with post strike clipping. Would
>>> letters at the edge show distortion?
>>>
>>> Bruce
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
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<p><br />
Pretty sure that this one is counterfeit, but I don't remember the weight. Will check next time I have it out.</p><p>Will</p><p><br />
---------------------------- Original Message ----------------------------<br />
Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Lion Dollar Clipping<br />
From: "Ray Williams njraywms@optonline.net [colonial-coins]" <colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com><br />
Date: Sun, February 22, 2015 9:37 pm<br />
To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com<br />
--------------------------------------------------------------------------<br />
<br />
> Jeff,<br />
> I have two counterfeits and i know Charlie R has a very nice one.<br />
> Ray<br />
><br />
><br />
> On 2/22/2015 8:07 PM, Rosa Americana rosaamltd@gmail.com<br />
> [colonial-coins] wrote:<br />
>><br />
>><br />
>> Syd, are any counterfeits?<br />
>><br />
>> Jeff<br />
>><br />
>> On Sun, Feb 22, 2015 at 4:53 PM, Bruce Smith bhsmith325@gmail.com<br />
>> <mailto:bhsmith325@gmail.com> [colonial-coins]<br />
>> <colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com<br />
>> <mailto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com>> wrote:<br />
>><br />
>> Thanks very much, Syd.<br />
>><br />
>> The three for which I have date are: 1616 - 414.4 gn.<br />
>> 1643 - 412.0 gn.<br />
>> 1648 - 411.9 gn.<br />
>><br />
>> I make the median of the coins in your collection to be 415.25<br />
>> gn., so mine are just a few grains below. As the two that I don't<br />
>> have weights for appear to be the least clipped, I should probably<br />
>> take a hammer to the Lion and free them from their slabs.<br />
>><br />
>> Bruce<br />
>><br />
>><br />
>><br />
>> On Sun, Feb 22, 2015 at 7:28 PM, Sydney Martin<br />
>> sfmartin5@comcast.net <mailto:sfmartin5@comcast.net><br />
>> [colonial-coins] <colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com<br />
>> <mailto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com>> wrote:<br />
>><br />
>> The following table is a list of Lion Daalders by date and<br />
>> weight in my collection. This may be of interest:<br />
>><br />
>><br />
>> Date Grains Wt.<br />
>> 1576 423.2<br />
>> 1589 412.3<br />
>> 1598 415.2<br />
>> 1604 420.4<br />
>> 1616 417.6<br />
>> 1617 415.2<br />
>> 1629 419.6<br />
>> 1629 413.6<br />
>> 1631 409.6<br />
>> 1633 415.1<br />
>> 1634 417.0<br />
>> 1637 419.8<br />
>> 1640 421.3<br />
>> 1640 413.6<br />
>> 1642 417.0<br />
>> 1643 415.3<br />
>> 1647 403.7<br />
>> 1648 372.7<br />
>> 1648 414.1<br />
>> 1650 420.2<br />
>> 1657 410.0<br />
>> 1668 422.0<br />
>> 1676 415.1<br />
>> ND 415.4<br />
>><br />
>><br />
>><br />
>> Syd<br />
>><br />
>><br />
>> On Feb 22, 2015, at 6:57 PM, Bruce Smith bhsmith325@gmail.com<br />
>> <mailto:bhsmith325@gmail.com> [colonial-coins] wrote:<br />
>><br />
>>><br />
>>> Thanks, Paul, and thanks, Ray, for your suggestion. I suppose<br />
>>> when it's all melted together, the .75 Lion Dollar clippings<br />
>>> wouldn't make enough of a difference. I have two that are<br />
>>> fairly round, but the others show at least some clipping.<br />
>>> They are intriguing coins. I found a paper on Lion Dollar<br />
>>> hordes found in Ottoman Palestine that is interesting. It's a<br />
>>> free download<br />
>>><br />
>>> https://www.academia<br />
>>> <https://www.academia/>.edu/4424141/The_Circulation_of_Dutch_Leeuwendaalders_in_17th_Century_Ottoman_Palestine_New_Evidence_from_Two_Unpublished_Hoards_Jaarboek_voor_Munt_en_Penningkunde_89_2002_47_-68<br />
>>><br />
>>> Bruce<br />
>>><br />
>>><br />
>>><br />
>>> On Sun, Feb 22, 2015 at 4:45 PM, Paul Cartmill<br />
>>> cartmill_paul@yahoo.com <mailto:cartmill_paul@yahoo.com><br />
>>> [colonial-coins] <colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com<br />
>>> <mailto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com>> wrote:<br />
>>><br />
>>><br />
>>> very nice Bruce, not the usual fare<br />
>>> paul<br />
>>><br />
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------<br />
>>> *From:* "Bruce Smith bhsmith325@gmail.com<br />
>>> <mailto:bhsmith325@gmail.com> [colonial-coins]"<br />
>>> <colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com<br />
>>> <mailto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com>><br />
>>> *To:* colonial-coins <colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com<br />
>>> <mailto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com>><br />
>>> *Sent:* Sunday, February 22, 2015 8:43 AM<br />
>>> *Subject:* [Colonial Numismatics] Lion Dollar<br />
>>> Clipping [1 Attachment]<br />
>>><br />
>>> The auction house described this 1643 Utrecht Lion<br />
>>> Dollar as clipped. At 412.2 grains it is shy of the<br />
>>> authorized 427.16, but I'm wondering if the 15 grain<br />
>>> difference would account entirely for the<br />
>>> appearance. Does anyone know how closely Lion Dollar<br />
>>> planchets were monitored and how adjustments were<br />
>>> made? I'm not sure what a heavy hammered coin like<br />
>>> this would look like with post strike clipping. Would<br />
>>> letters at the edge show distortion?<br />
>>><br />
>>> Bruce<br />
>>><br />
>>><br />
>>><br />
>>><br />
>>><br />
>><br />
>><br />
>><br />
>><br />
>><br />
>><br />
><br />
></p>
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