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Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Lion Dollar Clipping
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From: Sydney Martin <sfmartin5@comcast.net>
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I don't think so. The really light-weight one appears to be clipped. Syd
On Feb 22, 2015, at 8:07 PM, Rosa Americana rosaamltd@gmail.com [colonial-c=
oins] wrote:
>=20
> Syd, are any counterfeits?
>=20
> Jeff
>=20
> On Sun, Feb 22, 2015 at 4:53 PM, Bruce Smith bhsmith325@gmail.com [coloni=
al-coins] <colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>=20=20
>=20
> Thanks very much, Syd.
>=20
> The three for which I have date are: 1616 - 414.4 gn.
> 1643 - 412.0 gn=
.
> 1648 - 411.9 gn=
.
>=20
> I make the median of the coins in your collection to be 415.25 gn., so mi=
ne are just a few grains below. As the two that I don't have weights for ap=
pear to be the least clipped, I should probably take a hammer to the Lion a=
nd free them from their slabs.
>=20
> Bruce
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On Sun, Feb 22, 2015 at 7:28 PM, Sydney Martin sfmartin5@comcast.net [col=
onial-coins] <colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>=20=20
> The following table is a list of Lion Daalders by date and weight in my c=
ollection. This may be of interest:
>=20
>=20
> Date Grains Wt.
> 1576 423.2
> 1589 412.3
> 1598 415.2
> 1604 420.4
> 1616 417.6
> 1617 415.2
> 1629 419.6
> 1629 413.6
> 1631 409.6
> 1633 415.1
> 1634 417.0
> 1637 419.8
> 1640 421.3
> 1640 413.6
> 1642 417.0
> 1643 415.3
> 1647 403.7
> 1648 372.7
> 1648 414.1
> 1650 420.2
> 1657 410.0
> 1668 422.0
> 1676 415.1
> ND 415.4
>=20
>=20
> Syd
>=20
>=20
> On Feb 22, 2015, at 6:57 PM, Bruce Smith bhsmith325@gmail.com [colonial-c=
oins] wrote:
>=20
>>=20=20
>>=20
>> Thanks, Paul, and thanks, Ray, for your suggestion. I suppose when it's =
all melted together, the .75 Lion Dollar clippings wouldn't make enough of =
a difference. I have two that are fairly round, but the others show at leas=
t some clipping. They are intriguing coins. I found a paper on Lion Dollar =
hordes found in Ottoman Palestine that is interesting. It's a free download
>>=20
>> https://www.academia.edu/4424141/The_Circulation_of_Dutch_Leeuwendaalder=
s_in_17th_Century_Ottoman_Palestine_New_Evidence_from_Two_Unpublished_Hoard=
s_Jaarboek_voor_Munt_en_Penningkunde_89_2002_47_-68
>>=20
>> Bruce
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> On Sun, Feb 22, 2015 at 4:45 PM, Paul Cartmill cartmill_paul@yahoo.com [=
colonial-coins] <colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>>=20=20
>>=20
>> very nice Bruce, not the usual fare
>> paul
>>=20=20
>> From: "Bruce Smith bhsmith325@gmail.com [colonial-coins]" <colonial-coin=
s@yahoogroups.com>
>> To: colonial-coins <colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com>=20
>> Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2015 8:43 AM
>> Subject: [Colonial Numismatics] Lion Dollar Clipping [1 Attachment]
>>=20
>>=20=20
>> The auction house described this 1643 Utrecht Lion Dollar as clipped. At=
412.2 grains it is shy of the authorized 427.16, but I'm wondering if the =
15 grain difference would account entirely for the appearance. Does anyone=
know how closely Lion Dollar planchets were monitored and how adjustments =
were made? I'm not sure what a heavy hammered coin like this would look lik=
e with post strike clipping. Would letters at the edge show distortion?
>>=20
>> Bruce
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
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<html><head></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode:=
space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">I don't think so. Th=
e really light-weight one appears to be clipped. Syd<div><br><div><br=
><div><div>On Feb 22, 2015, at 8:07 PM, Rosa Americana <a href=3D"mailto:ro=
saamltd@gmail.com">rosaamltd@gmail.com</a> [colonial-coins] wrote:</div><br=
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type=3D"cite">
=20
<div style=3D"background-color: #fff;">
<span style=3D"display:none"> </span>
<div id=3D"ygrp-text"><div><br class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div=
><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Syd, are any counterfeits?</div><div><br>Jeff</div><=
/div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sun, Feb =
22, 2015 at 4:53 PM, Bruce Smith <a href=3D"mailto:bhsmith325@gmail.com">bh=
smith325@gmail.com</a> [colonial-coins] <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com" target=3D"_blank">colonial-coins@yahoo=
groups.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"border-left:1px #ccc solid;">
<u></u>
=20
<div style=3D"background-color:rgb(255,255,255);">
<span> </span>
<div>
<div>
<div><div><br class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div dir=3D"ltr"=
>Thanks very much, Syd.<div><br></div><div>The three for which I have date =
are: 1616 - 414.4 gn.</div><div> &=
nbsp; =
&nbs=
p; 1643 - 412.0 gn.</div><div> &nb=
sp; &=
nbsp; =
1648 - 411.9 gn.</div><div><br></div><div>I make the median =
of the coins in your collection to be 415.25 gn., so mine are just a few gr=
ains below. As the two that I don't have weights for appear to be the least=
clipped, I should probably take a hammer to the Lion and free them from th=
eir slabs.</div><div><br></div><div>Bruce</div><div><div class=3D"h5"><div>=
<br></div><div><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail=
_quote">On Sun, Feb 22, 2015 at 7:28 PM, Sydney Martin <a href=3D"mailto:sf=
martin5@comcast.net" target=3D"_blank">sfmartin5@comcast.net</a> [colonial-=
coins] <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.c=
om" target=3D"_blank">colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com</a>></span> wrote:<=
br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left-color:rgb(204,204=
,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;">
<u></u>
=20
<div style=3D"background-color:rgb(255,255,255);">
<span> </span>
<div>
<div>
<div><p>The following table is a list of Lion Daalders by date and weig=
ht in my collection. This may be of interest:</p><div><br></div><div>
<table width=3D"194" style=3D"border-collapse:collapse;" border=3D"0" cells=
pacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0">
<colgroup><col width=3D"97">
<col width=3D"97">
</colgroup><tbody><tr height=3D"20">
<td width=3D"97" height=3D"20">Date</td>
<td width=3D"97">Grains Wt.</td>
</tr>
<tr height=3D"18">
<td height=3D"18" align=3D"right">1576</td>
<td align=3D"right">423.2</td>
</tr>
<tr height=3D"18">
<td height=3D"18" align=3D"right">1589</td>
<td align=3D"right">412.3</td>
</tr>
<tr height=3D"18">
<td height=3D"18" align=3D"right">1598</td>
<td align=3D"right">415.2</td>
</tr>
<tr height=3D"18">
<td height=3D"18" align=3D"right">1604</td>
<td align=3D"right">420.4</td>
</tr>
<tr height=3D"18">
<td height=3D"18" align=3D"right">1616</td>
<td align=3D"right">417.6</td>
</tr>
<tr height=3D"18">
<td height=3D"18" align=3D"right">1617</td>
<td align=3D"right">415.2</td>
</tr>
<tr height=3D"18">
<td height=3D"18" align=3D"right">1629</td>
<td align=3D"right">419.6</td>
</tr>
<tr height=3D"18">
<td height=3D"18" align=3D"right">1629</td>
<td align=3D"right">413.6</td>
</tr>
<tr height=3D"18">
<td height=3D"18" align=3D"right">1631</td>
<td align=3D"right">409.6</td>
</tr>
<tr height=3D"18">
<td height=3D"18" align=3D"right">1633</td>
<td align=3D"right">415.1</td>
</tr>
<tr height=3D"18">
<td height=3D"18" align=3D"right">1634</td>
<td align=3D"right">417.0</td>
</tr>
<tr height=3D"18">
<td height=3D"18" align=3D"right">1637</td>
<td align=3D"right">419.8</td>
</tr>
<tr height=3D"18">
<td height=3D"18" align=3D"right">1640</td>
<td align=3D"right">421.3</td>
</tr>
<tr height=3D"18">
<td height=3D"18" align=3D"right">1640</td>
<td align=3D"right">413.6</td>
</tr>
<tr height=3D"18">
<td height=3D"18" align=3D"right">1642</td>
<td align=3D"right">417.0</td>
</tr>
<tr height=3D"18">
<td height=3D"18" align=3D"right">1643</td>
<td align=3D"right">415.3</td>
</tr>
<tr height=3D"18">
<td height=3D"18" align=3D"right">1647</td>
<td align=3D"right">403.7</td>
</tr>
<tr height=3D"18">
<td height=3D"18" align=3D"right">1648</td>
<td align=3D"right">372.7</td>
</tr>
<tr height=3D"18">
<td height=3D"18" align=3D"right">1648</td>
<td align=3D"right">414.1</td>
</tr>
<tr height=3D"18">
<td height=3D"18" align=3D"right">1650</td>
<td align=3D"right">420.2</td>
</tr>
<tr height=3D"18">
<td height=3D"18" align=3D"right">1657</td>
<td align=3D"right">410.0</td>
</tr>
<tr height=3D"18">
<td height=3D"18" align=3D"right">1668</td>
<td align=3D"right">422.0</td>
</tr>
<tr height=3D"18">
<td height=3D"18" align=3D"right">1676</td>
<td align=3D"right">415.1</td>
</tr>
<tr height=3D"19">
<td height=3D"19">ND</td>
<td align=3D"right">415.4</td>
</tr>
</tbody></table><div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Syd</div><span><div=
><br></div><div><br></div><div>On Feb 22, 2015, at 6:57 PM, Bruce Smith <a =
href=3D"mailto:bhsmith325@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">bhsmith325@gmail.com=
</a> [colonial-coins] wrote:</div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite">
=20
<div style=3D"background-color:rgb(255,255,255);">
<span> </span>
<div><div><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">Thanks, Paul, and thanks, Ray, for=
your suggestion. I suppose when it's all melted together, the .75 Lion Dol=
lar clippings wouldn't make enough of a difference. I have two that are fai=
rly round, but the others show at least some clipping. They are intriguing =
coins. I found a paper on Lion Dollar hordes found in Ottoman Palestine tha=
t is interesting. It's a free download<div><br></div><div><a href=3D"https:=
//www.academia/" target=3D"_blank">https://www.academia</a>.<span>edu</span=
>/4424141/The_Circulation_of_Dutch_<span>Leeuwendaalders</span>_in_17th_Cen=
tury_Ottoman_Palestine_New_Evidence_from_Two_Unpublished_Hoards_<span>Jaarb=
oek</span>_<span>voor</span>_<span>Munt</span>_en_<span>Penningkunde</span>=
_89_2002_47_-68</div><div><br></div><div>Bruce<br><div><br></div><div><br><=
/div></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
On Sun, Feb 22, 2015 at 4:45 PM, Paul Cartmill <a href=3D"mailto:cartmill_p=
aul@yahoo.com" target=3D"_blank">cartmill_paul@yahoo.com</a> [colonial-coin=
s] <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com" =
target=3D"_blank">colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><=
blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204=
);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;">
<u></u>
=20
<div style=3D"background-color:rgb(255,255,255);">
<span> </span>
<div>
<div>
<div><div><br></div><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetic=
aNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-serif;font-size:16p=
x;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);"><div><span></span></div><div>very nic=
e Bruce, not the usual fare</div><div dir=3D"ltr">paul<br> </div><bloc=
kquote style=3D"margin-top:5px;margin-left:5px;border-left-color:rgb(16,16,=
255);border-left-width:2px;border-left-style:solid;"> <div style=3D"font-f=
amily:HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-serif=
;font-size:16px;"> <div style=3D"font-family:HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,H=
elvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-serif;font-size:16px;"> <div dir=3D"ltr">=
<hr size=3D"1"> <font face=3D"Arial"> <b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold;=
">From:</span></b> "Bruce Smith <a href=3D"mailto:bhsmith325@gmail.com" tar=
get=3D"_blank">bhsmith325@gmail.com</a> [colonial-coins]" <<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com" target=3D"_blank">colonial-coins@yahoo=
groups.com</a>><br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold;">To:</span></b> =
colonial-coins <<a href=3D"mailto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com" target=
=3D"_blank">colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com</a>> <br> <b><span style=3D"f=
ont-weight:bold;">Sent:</span></b> Sunday, February 22, 2015 8:43 AM<br> <b=
><span style=3D"font-weight:bold;">Subject:</span></b> [Colonial Numismatic=
s] Lion Dollar Clipping [1 Attachment]<br> </font> </div><span> <div><br><d=
iv><div>
<span> </span>
<div>
<div>
<div>
=20=20=20=20=20=20
=20=20=20=20=20=20
<div></div><div dir=3D"ltr">The auction house described this 1643 Utr=
echt Lion Dollar as clipped. At 412.2 grains it is shy of the authorized 42=
7.16, but I'm wondering if the 15 grain difference would account enti=
rely for the appearance. Does anyone know how closely Lion Dollar planchets=
were monitored and how adjustments were made? I'm not sure what a heavy ha=
mmered coin like this would look like with post strike clipping. Would lett=
ers at the edge show distortion?<div><br clear=3D"none"></div><div>Bruce</d=
iv></div>
</div>
=20=20=20=20=20
=20=20=20=20
<div style=3D"color:rgb(255,255,255);min-height:0px;"></div></div>
</div></div><br><br></div> </div> </span></div> </div></blockquote> </div>=
<div><br></div>
</div>
=20=20=20=20=20
=20=20=20=20
<div style=3D"color:rgb(255,255,255);min-height:0px;"></div>
</div>
=20=20
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div><div><br></div>
</div>
=20=20=20=20=20
=20=20=20=20
</div>
</blockquote></span></div><br></div><div><br class=3D"webkit-block-placehol=
der"></div>
</div>
=20=20=20=20=20
=20=20=20=20
<div style=3D"color:rgb(255,255,255);min-height:0px;"></div>
</div>
=20=20
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div></div></div><div><br class=
=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div><br class=3D"webkit-block-placehol=
der"></div></div>
=20=20=20=20=20
=20=20=20=20
<div style=3D"color:rgb(255,255,255);min-height:0px;"></div>
</div>
=20=20
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div><div><br class=3D"webkit-block-pla=
ceholder"></div>
</div>
=20=20=20=20=20
=20=20=20=20
</div>
<!-- end group email -->
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