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- From PLMossman@aol.com Mon Feb 23 08:55:16 2015
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Full-name: PLMossman
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Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2015 11:55:15 -0500
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Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Lion Dollar Clipping
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The question has been raised concerning counterfeit Lion Dollar. Two are=
=20
pictured on p. 103 of From Crime to Punishment provided by C4 colleagues. =
=20
These fakes are not to be confused with the several imitation Lion Dollars=
=20
discussed on p. 65 of Money. Footnote 127 list the 15 or so legal Europea=
n=20
mints where this successful trade coin was imitated.=20=20
This is a fun series.
Phil`
=20
=20
In a message dated 2/22/2015 9:37:34 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,=20=20
colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com writes:
=20
=20
=20
Jeff,
I have two counterfeits and i know Charlie R has a very nice one.
Ray
On 2/22/2015 8:07 PM, Rosa Americana _rosaamltd@gmail.com_=20
(mailto:rosaamltd@gmail.com) [colonial-coins] wrote:
Syd, are any counterfeits?
Jeff
On Sun, Feb 22, 2015 at 4:53 PM, Bruce Smith _bhsmith325@gmail.com_=20
(mailto:bhsmith325@gmail.com) [colonial-coins] <_colonial-coins@yahoogroup=
s.com_=20
(mailto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com) > wrote:
=20
=20
=20
Thanks very much, Syd.=20=20
The three for which I have date are: 1616 - 414.4 gn.
1643 - 412.0 gn.
1648 - 411.9 gn.
I make the median of the coins in your collection to be 415.25 gn., so=20
mine are just a few grains below. As the two that I don't have weights for=
=20
appear to be the least clipped, I should probably take a hammer to the Lio=
n=20
and free them from their slabs.
Bruce
=20
=20
On Sun, Feb 22, 2015 at 7:28 PM, Sydney Martin _sfmartin5@comcast.net_=20
(mailto:sfmartin5@comcast.net) [colonial-coins]=20
<_colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com) >=
wrote:
=20
=20
=20
The following table is a list of Lion Daalders by date and weight in my=20
collection. This may be of interest:=20
Date Grains Wt. 1576 423.2 1589 412.3 1598 415.2 1604 420.4 1616=
=20
417.6 1617 415.2 1629 419.6 1629 413.6 1631 409.6 1633 415.1 1634=20
417.0 1637 419.8 1640 421.3 1640 413.6 1642 417.0 1643 415.3 1647 403=
.7=20=20
1648 372.7 1648 414.1 1650 420.2 1657 410.0 1668 422.0 1676 415.1 ND=
=20
415.4=20
=20
Syd
On Feb 22, 2015, at 6:57 PM, Bruce Smith _bhsmith325@gmail.com_=20
(mailto:bhsmith325@gmail.com) [colonial-coins] wrote:
=20
Thanks, Paul, and thanks, Ray, for your suggestion. I suppose when it's=20
all melted together, the .75 Lion Dollar clippings wouldn't make enough of=
a=20
difference. I have two that are fairly round, but the others show at least=
=20
some clipping. They are intriguing coins. I found a paper on Lion Dollar=20
hordes found in Ottoman Palestine that is interesting. It's a free downloa=
d=20=20
_https://www.academia_ (https://www.academia/)=20
.edu/4424141/The_Circulation_of_Dutch_Leeuwendaalders_in_17th_Century_Ottom=
an_Palestine_New_Evidence_from
_Two_Unpublished_Hoards_Jaarboek_voor_Munt_en_Penningkunde_89_2002_47_-68
Bruce
On Sun, Feb 22, 2015 at 4:45 PM, Paul Cartmill _cartmill_paul@yahoo.com_=20
(mailto:cartmill_paul@yahoo.com) [colonial-coins]=20
<_colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com) >=
wrote:
=20
=20
=20
very nice Bruce, not the usual fare
paul
=20
=20=20
____________________________________
From: "Bruce Smith _bhsmith325@gmail.com_ (mailto:bhsmith325@gmail.com) =
=20
[colonial-coins]" <_colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com_=20
(mailto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com) >
To: colonial-coins <_colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com_=20
(mailto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com) >=20
Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2015 8:43 AM
Subject: [Colonial Numismatics] Lion Dollar Clipping [1 Attachment]
=20
=20
=20
=20
The auction house described this 1643 Utrecht Lion Dollar as clipped. At=20
412.2 grains it is shy of the authorized 427.16, but I'm wondering if the =
15=20
grain difference would account entirely for the appearance. Does anyone=20
know how closely Lion Dollar planchets were monitored and how adjustments =
=20
were made? I'm not sure what a heavy hammered coin like this would look li=
ke=20
with post strike clipping. Would letters at the edge show distortion?=20=20
Bruce
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7><FONT=20
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<DIV>The question has been raised concerning counterfeit Lion Dollar.=
Two=20
are pictured on p. 103 of <EM>From Crime to Punishment </EM>provided b=
y C4=20
colleagues. These fakes are not to be confused with the several imita=
tion=20
Lion Dollars discussed on p. 65 of <EM>Money</EM>. Footnote 127 list =
the=20
15 or so legal European mints where this successful trade coin was imitated=
.=20
</DIV>
<DIV>This is a fun series.</DIV>
<DIV>Phil`</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>In a message dated 2/22/2015 9:37:34 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,=20
colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com writes:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px">=
<FONT=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" color=3D#000000 size=3D2 face=3DA=
rial><SPAN=20
style=3D"DISPLAY: none"> </SPAN>=20
<DIV id=3Dygrp-text>
<P>Jeff,<BR> I have two counterfeits and i know Charlie=
R=20
has a very nice one.<BR>Ray<BR><BR><BR>
<DIV class=3Dmoz-cite-prefix>On 2/22/2015 8:07 PM, Rosa Americana <A=20
class=3Dmoz-txt-link-abbreviated title=3Dmailto:rosaamltd@gmail.com=20
href=3D"mailto:rosaamltd@gmail.com">rosaamltd@gmail.com</A> [colonial-coi=
ns]=20
wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
cite=3Dmid:CAC7kd3RcBVZZ8Xx3uBHG0ZYDG+ZW9RavL1sTJMvz1Bd6bwLYNw@mail.gmail=
.com=20
type=3D"cite">
<DIV dir=3Dltr>
<DIV>Syd, are any counterfeits?</DIV>
<DIV><BR>Jeff</DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=3Dgmail_extra><BR>
<DIV class=3Dgmail_quote>On Sun, Feb 22, 2015 at 4:53 PM, Bruce Smith <=
A=20
title=3Dmailto:bhsmith325@gmail.com href=3D"mailto:bhsmith325@gmail.com=
"=20
moz=3D"true">bhsmith325@gmail.com</A> [colonial-coins] <SPAN dir=3Dltr>=
<<A=20
title=3Dmailto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com=20
href=3D"mailto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com" target=3D_blank=20
moz=3D"true">colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid" class=3Dgmail_quote>
<DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255)"><SPAN> </SPAN>=
=20
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr>Thanks very much, Syd.=20
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>The three for which I have date are: 1616 - 414.4 gn.</DIV>
<DIV> &=
nbsp;=20
=
=20
1643 -=
=20
412.0 gn.</DIV>
<DIV> &=
nbsp;=20
=
=20
1648 -=
=20
411.9 gn.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>I make the median of the coins in your collection to be 415.25 g=
n.,=20
so mine are just a few grains below. As the two that I don't have wei=
ghts=20
for appear to be the least clipped, I should probably take a hammer t=
o the=20
Lion and free them from their slabs.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Bruce</DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=3Dh5>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=3Dgmail_extra><BR>
<DIV class=3Dgmail_quote>On Sun, Feb 22, 2015 at 7:28 PM, Sydney Mart=
in <A=20
title=3Dmailto:sfmartin5@comcast.net href=3D"mailto:sfmartin5@comcast=
.net"=20
target=3D_blank moz=3D"true">sfmartin5@comcast.net</A> [colonial-coin=
s] <SPAN=20
dir=3Dltr><<A title=3Dmailto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com=20
href=3D"mailto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com" target=3D_blank=20
moz=3D"true">colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid"=20
class=3Dgmail_quote>
<DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255)"><SPAN> </SPA=
N>=20
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P>The following table is a list of Lion Daalders by date and weigh=
t in=20
my collection. This may be of interest:</P>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>
<TABLE style=3D"BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse" border=3D0 cellSpacing=
=3D0=20
cellPadding=3D0 width=3D194>
<COLGROUP>
<COL width=3D97>
<COL width=3D97></COLGROUP>
<TBODY>
<TR height=3D20>
<TD height=3D20 width=3D97>Date</TD>
<TD width=3D97>Grains Wt.</TD></TR>
<TR height=3D18>
<TD height=3D18 align=3Dright>1576</TD>
<TD align=3Dright>423.2</TD></TR>
<TR height=3D18>
<TD height=3D18 align=3Dright>1589</TD>
<TD align=3Dright>412.3</TD></TR>
<TR height=3D18>
<TD height=3D18 align=3Dright>1598</TD>
<TD align=3Dright>415.2</TD></TR>
<TR height=3D18>
<TD height=3D18 align=3Dright>1604</TD>
<TD align=3Dright>420.4</TD></TR>
<TR height=3D18>
<TD height=3D18 align=3Dright>1616</TD>
<TD align=3Dright>417.6</TD></TR>
<TR height=3D18>
<TD height=3D18 align=3Dright>1617</TD>
<TD align=3Dright>415.2</TD></TR>
<TR height=3D18>
<TD height=3D18 align=3Dright>1629</TD>
<TD align=3Dright>419.6</TD></TR>
<TR height=3D18>
<TD height=3D18 align=3Dright>1629</TD>
<TD align=3Dright>413.6</TD></TR>
<TR height=3D18>
<TD height=3D18 align=3Dright>1631</TD>
<TD align=3Dright>409.6</TD></TR>
<TR height=3D18>
<TD height=3D18 align=3Dright>1633</TD>
<TD align=3Dright>415.1</TD></TR>
<TR height=3D18>
<TD height=3D18 align=3Dright>1634</TD>
<TD align=3Dright>417.0</TD></TR>
<TR height=3D18>
<TD height=3D18 align=3Dright>1637</TD>
<TD align=3Dright>419.8</TD></TR>
<TR height=3D18>
<TD height=3D18 align=3Dright>1640</TD>
<TD align=3Dright>421.3</TD></TR>
<TR height=3D18>
<TD height=3D18 align=3Dright>1640</TD>
<TD align=3Dright>413.6</TD></TR>
<TR height=3D18>
<TD height=3D18 align=3Dright>1642</TD>
<TD align=3Dright>417.0</TD></TR>
<TR height=3D18>
<TD height=3D18 align=3Dright>1643</TD>
<TD align=3Dright>415.3</TD></TR>
<TR height=3D18>
<TD height=3D18 align=3Dright>1647</TD>
<TD align=3Dright>403.7</TD></TR>
<TR height=3D18>
<TD height=3D18 align=3Dright>1648</TD>
<TD align=3Dright>372.7</TD></TR>
<TR height=3D18>
<TD height=3D18 align=3Dright>1648</TD>
<TD align=3Dright>414.1</TD></TR>
<TR height=3D18>
<TD height=3D18 align=3Dright>1650</TD>
<TD align=3Dright>420.2</TD></TR>
<TR height=3D18>
<TD height=3D18 align=3Dright>1657</TD>
<TD align=3Dright>410.0</TD></TR>
<TR height=3D18>
<TD height=3D18 align=3Dright>1668</TD>
<TD align=3Dright>422.0</TD></TR>
<TR height=3D18>
<TD height=3D18 align=3Dright>1676</TD>
<TD align=3Dright>415.1</TD></TR>
<TR height=3D19>
<TD height=3D19>ND</TD>
<TD align=3Dright>415.4</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Syd</DIV><SPAN>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>On Feb 22, 2015, at 6:57 PM, Bruce Smith <A=20
title=3Dmailto:bhsmith325@gmail.com href=3D"mailto:bhsmith325@gmail=
.com"=20
target=3D_blank moz=3D"true">bhsmith325@gmail.com</A> [colonial-coi=
ns]=20
wrote:</DIV><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite">
<DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255)"><SPAN> </S=
PAN>=20
<DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr>Thanks, Paul, and thanks, Ray, for your suggestion=
. I=20
suppose when it's all melted together, the .75 Lion Dollar clippi=
ngs=20
wouldn't make enough of a difference. I have two that are fairly=
=20
round, but the others show at least some clipping. They are intri=
guing=20
coins. I found a paper on Lion Dollar hordes found in Ottoman=20
Palestine that is interesting. It's a free download=20
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><A title=3Dhttps://www.academia/ href=3D"https://www.academi=
a/"=20
target=3D_blank=20
moz=3D"true">https://www.academia</A>.<SPAN>edu</SPAN>/4424141/Th=
e_Circulation_of_Dutch_<SPAN>Leeuwendaalders</SPAN>_in_17th_Century_Ottoman=
_Palestine_New_Evidence_from_Two_Unpublished_Hoards_<SPAN>Jaarboek</SPAN>_<=
SPAN>voor</SPAN>_<SPAN>Munt</SPAN>_en_<SPAN>Penningkunde</SPAN>_89_2002_47_=
-68</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Bruce<BR>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=3Dgmail_extra><BR>
<DIV class=3Dgmail_quote>On Sun, Feb 22, 2015 at 4:45 PM, Paul Ca=
rtmill=20
<A title=3Dmailto:cartmill_paul@yahoo.com=20
href=3D"mailto:cartmill_paul@yahoo.com" target=3D_blank=20
moz=3D"true">cartmill_paul@yahoo.com</A> [colonial-coins] <SPAN=20
dir=3Dltr><<A title=3Dmailto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com=20
href=3D"mailto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com" target=3D_blank=20
moz=3D"true">colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com</A>></SPAN> wrote:=
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid"=20
class=3Dgmail_quote>
<DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255)"><SPAN> <=
/SPAN>=20
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); FONT-FAMILY: Helve=
ticaNeue,Helvetica
=
Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida
Grande,sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 16=
px">
<DIV><SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV>very nice Bruce, not the usual fare</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr>paul<BR> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid; MARGIN-TOP: 5px=
; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: HelveticaNeue,Helvetica
=
Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida
Grande,sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 16px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: HelveticaNeue,Helvetica
=
Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida
Grande,sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 16px">
<DIV dir=3Dltr>
<HR SIZE=3D1>
<FONT face=3DArial><B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> "Bruce Smith <A=
=20
title=3Dmailto:bhsmith325@gmail.com=20
href=3D"mailto:bhsmith325@gmail.com" target=3D_blank=20
moz=3D"true">bhsmith325@gmail.com</A> [colonial-coins]" <<=
A=20
title=3Dmailto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com=20
href=3D"mailto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com" target=3D_blan=
k=20
moz=3D"true">colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com</A>><BR><B><SP=
AN=20
style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> colonial-coins <=
;<A=20
title=3Dmailto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com=20
href=3D"mailto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com" target=3D_blan=
k=20
moz=3D"true">colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com</A>> <BR><B><S=
PAN=20
style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Sunday, February=
22,=20
2015 8:43 AM<BR><B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> [Colonial=20
Numismatics] Lion Dollar Clipping [1=20
Attachment]<BR></FONT></DIV><SPAN>
<DIV><BR>
<DIV>
<DIV><SPAN> </SPAN>=20
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr>The auction house described this 1643 Utrecht =
Lion=20
Dollar as clipped. At 412.2 grains it is shy of the authorize=
d=20
427.16, but I'm wondering if the 15 grain difference would=20
account entirely for the appearance. Does anyone know h=
ow=20
closely Lion Dollar planchets were monitored and how adjustme=
nts=20
were made? I'm not sure what a heavy hammered coin like this =
would=20
look like with post strike clipping. Would letters at the edg=
e=20
show distortion?=20
<DIV><BR clear=3Dnone></DIV>
<DIV>Bruce</DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV><BR><BR></DIV><=
/DIV></SPAN></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR><=
/DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></SPAN></DIV><BR></DIV></=
DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV>=
</DIV></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV style=3D"COLOR: white" width=3D"1"></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<P></P></DIV>
<DIV style=3D"HEIGHT: 0px; COLOR: #fff"></DIV></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><=
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