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X-eGroups-From: Michael Packard <mikepackard@mac.com>
Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Re: Colonial Copper over-strikes
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From: Michael Packard <mpackard3@mac.com>
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Craig,
The Massachusetts copper mint =C2=A0lost money as you stated. =C2=A0It clos=
ed, not because it was losing money, but because the new U.S. Constitution =
provided that only the federal government had the right to coin money. =C2=
=A0The General court was frustrated at the lack of money coined and was in =
the process of replacing Witherle as mintmaster when the ninth state ratifi=
ed the Constitution, putting its provisions into effect. =C2=A0
There were a number of reasons for the Massachusetts mint lost money, the b=
iggest, from my perspective, is that they did not strike coppers quickly en=
ough. Any manufacturing concern will have relatively high initial fixed cos=
ts (buildings, machinery, etc.) and those fixed costs have to be amortized =
over time from the excess of the price of goods sold over the cost of input=
s (in this case, labor, copper, charcoal for smelting metal to get relative=
ly pure copper, carting the copper to Dedham to draw it under the trip hamm=
er and rolling it to thickness and carting back again to Boston to have pla=
nchets cut and coins struck). =C2=A0Some of these latter costs would have b=
een eliminated had Witherle set up the whole operation (or at least the sme=
lting operation) in Dedham (he couldn't set everything up in Boston because=
he needed a water mill to drive the trip hammer). =C2=A0The costs of carti=
ng copper (both time and money) and the costs of resolving problems at the =
new mint (both time and money) cut into the time available for actually pre=
paring planchets and striking coins. =C2=A0The cost of copper, preparing pl=
anchets and striking coins was less than the value of coins produced. =C2=
=A0If more coins had been produced, the loss to the state would have been l=
ess and eventually the mint would have turned into a profit. =C2=A0Obviousl=
y, the faster the money was produced, the sooner the state would have turne=
d a profit. =C2=A0
Mike P
On Oct 08, 2015, at 01:49 PM, "CMcdon0923@aol.com [colonial-coins]" <coloni=
al-coins@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
Which as I have heard, is one of the reasons they couldn't maintain the ser=
ies....the cost of producing the coins was too high to cover the costs and =
still allow for a decent profit.
Craig
-----Original Message-----
From: Ray Williams njraywms@optonline.net [colonial-coins] <colonial-coins@=
yahoogroups.com>
To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com <colonial=
-coins@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thu, Oct 8, 2015 6:40 am
Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Re: Colonial Copper over-strikes
=C2=A0
Great info Mike,
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 I knew that the MA Coppers were the best of the st=
ate coppers with respect to quality control.=C2=A0 I didn't know the rest.=
=C2=A0 It would make agood article.
Thanks
Ray
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
On Wed, Oct 07, 2015 at 11:38 PM, Michael Packard mpackard3@mac.com[colonia=
l-coins] wrote:
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
Jack,
Usually you can see some of the undertype--most often part of the Eagle's w=
ing or a talon and some of the arrow shafts, as on this piece, but sometime=
s part of the Indian or letters. =C2=A0=C2=A0
All the 16.3-Ns struck over Massachusetts cents that I could attribute have=
been struck over 1787 Ryder 1-B cents. =C2=A0I know of about 14 1-B cents =
and 25-30 examples that were host planchets for 16.3-Ns. =C2=A0I'm confiden=
t that there are more of each waiting to be discovered.
I've seen few error coins in the Massachusetts copper series. =C2=A0The mos=
t common error, by far, is clipped planchets. =C2=A0I've seen two half cent=
pieforts (half cents struck on cent-thickness planchets). =C2=A0 I think t=
hese and a white metal half cent were test strikes. =C2=A0I've also seen th=
ree off-center strikes--one about 40% off-center--and two about 5% off-cent=
er. =C2=A0All are 1788 Ryder 3-E cents. =C2=A0M y theory is that the coiner=
got his fingers pinched and was very tentative when inserting the next few=
planchets into the press. =C2=A0I haven't found a blood-stained 3-E to sup=
port this, however. =C2=A0I've never seen a double-struck or brockage Massa=
chusetts copper nor one struck over another coin. =C2=A0(I did once see a r=
eference to a US half cent struck over a Massachusetts half cent, but have =
never been able to track it down.) =C2=A0Some Massachusetts coppers have pl=
anchet problems--striations, laminations and de-laminations, non-copper met=
al inclusions from incomplete or careless smelting, and variable thickness =
planchets that cause obverse and reverse striking weakness in the thin area=
s. =C2=A0I hesitate to call these errors because they are not the result of=
striking problems. =C2=A0I'd like to hear form anyone who has, or has seen=
, Massachusetts copper errors other than clips.
Mike P
On Oct 07, 2015, at 08:28 PM, "Gry1564@aol.com [colonial-coins]" <colonial-=
coins@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
=C2=A0
Bunch of Arrows on the Obv. bust.
=C2=A0
In a message dated 10/7/2015 8:23:08 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, colonial-c=
oins@yahoogroups.com writes:
=C2=A0
I noticed in the April 2006 Colonial Newsletter there is mention of 1788 Co=
nnecticut 16.3-N struck over a 1787 counterfeit Massachusetts cent; the att=
ached pic is of an auction listed 16.3-N claimed to be struck over a Massac=
husetts cent- how can you tell from the pics?
Best,
Jack
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<html><body><div><div>Craig,</div><div><br></div><div>The Massachusetts cop=
per mint lost money as you stated. It closed, not because it wa=
s losing money, but because the new U.S. Constitution provided that only th=
e federal government had the right to coin money. The General court w=
as frustrated at the lack of money coined and was in the process of replaci=
ng Witherle as mintmaster when the ninth state ratified the Constitution, p=
utting its provisions into effect. </div><div><br></div><div>There we=
re a number of reasons for the Massachusetts mint lost money, the biggest, =
from my perspective, is that they did not strike coppers quickly enough. An=
y manufacturing concern will have relatively high initial fixed costs (buil=
dings, machinery, etc.) and those fixed costs have to be amortized over tim=
e from the excess of the price of goods sold over the cost of inputs (in th=
is case, labor, copper, charcoal for smelting metal to get relatively pure =
copper, carting the copper to Dedham to draw it under the trip hammer and r=
olling it to thickness and carting back again to Boston to have planchets c=
ut and coins struck). Some of these latter costs would have been elim=
inated had Witherle set up the whole operation (or at least the smelting op=
eration) in Dedham (he couldn't set everything up in Boston because he need=
ed a water mill to drive the trip hammer). The costs of carting coppe=
r (both time and money) and the costs of resolving problems at the new mint=
(both time and money) cut into the time available for actually preparing p=
lanchets and striking coins. The cost of copper, preparing planchets =
and striking coins was less than the value of coins produced. If more=
coins had been produced, the loss to the state would have been less and ev=
entually the mint would have turned into a profit. Obviously, the fas=
ter the money was produced, the sooner the state would have turned a profit=
. </div><div><br></div><div>Mike P</div></div><div><br>On Oct 08, 201=
5, at 01:49 PM, "CMcdon0923@aol.com [colonial-coins]" <colonial-coins@ya=
hoogroups.com> wrote:<br><br></div><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div c=
lass=3D"msg-quote" style=3D"background-color: #fff" data-mce-style=3D"backg=
round-color: #fff;"><span style=3D"display: none" data-mce-style=3D"display=
: none;"> </span><div id=3D"ygrp-mlmsg" style=3D"position: relative" d=
ata-mce-style=3D"position: relative;"><div id=3D"ygrp-msg" style=3D"z-index=
: 1" data-mce-style=3D"z-index: 1;"><div id=3D"ygrp-text"><p><span face=3D"=
arial" size=3D"2" color=3D"black" data-mce-style=3D"color: black; font-fami=
ly: arial; font-size: x-small;" style=3D"color: black; font-family: arial; =
font-size: x-small;">Which as I have heard, is one of the reasons they coul=
dn't maintain the series....the cost of producing the coins was too high to=
cover the costs and still allow for a decent profit. </span></p><div><span=
face=3D"arial" size=3D"2" color=3D"black" data-mce-style=3D"color: black; =
font-family: arial; font-size: x-small;" style=3D"color: black; font-family=
: arial; font-size: x-small;"><br> </span></div><div>Craig<br> <br> <br><di=
v style=3D"font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" ; font-si=
ze: 10pt ; color: black" data-mce-style=3D"font-family: 'arial' , 'helvetic=
a'; font-size: 10pt; color: black;">-----Original Message-----<br> From: Ra=
y Williams <a href=3D"mailto:njraywms@optonline.net" data-mce-href=3D"mailt=
o:njraywms@optonline.net">njraywms@optonline.net</a> [colonial-coins] <c=
olonial-coins@yahoogroups.com><br> To: <a href=3D"mailto:colonial-coins@=
yahoogroups.com" data-mce-href=3D"mailto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com">co=
lonial-coins@yahoogroups.com</a> <a href=3D"mailto:colonial-coins@yahoogrou=
ps.com" data-mce-href=3D"mailto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com">colonial-co=
ins@yahoogroups.com</a> <colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com><br> Sent: Th=
u, Oct 8, 2015 6:40 am<br> Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Re: Colonial=
Copper over-strikes<br> <br><div id=3D"AOLMsgPart_2_4510bb58-6611-4221-b5c=
d-83885b596298"><div class=3D"aolReplacedBody" style=3D"background-color: #=
fff" data-mce-style=3D"background-color: #fff;"><span> </span><div id=
=3D"ygrp-mlmsg"><div id=3D"ygrp-msg"><div id=3D"ygrp-text"><div>Great info =
Mike,</div><div> I knew that the MA Coppers were th=
e best of the state coppers with respect to quality control. I didn't=
know the rest. It would make agood article.</div><div>Thanks</div><d=
iv>Ray</div><div style=3D"font-family: "verdana"" data-mce-style=
=3D"font-family: 'verdana';"><div> </div><div> </div><div> <=
/div>On Wed, Oct 07, 2015 at 11:38 PM, Michael Packard <a href=3D"mailto:mp=
ackard3@mac.com" data-mce-href=3D"mailto:mpackard3@mac.com">mpackard3@mac.c=
om</a>[colonial-coins] wrote:<div> </div><div> </div><blockquote =
style=3D"margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex ; border-left-color: rgb(136 , 136 , 136=
) ; border-left-width: 2px ; border-left-style: solid" data-mce-style=3D"ma=
rgin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left-color: #888888; border-left-width: 2px=
; border-left-style: solid;"><br> <br><div><div>Jack,</div><div><br></div><=
div>Usually you can see some of the undertype--most often part of the Eagle=
's wing or a talon and some of the arrow shafts, as on this piece, but some=
times part of the Indian or letters. </div><div><br></div><div>=
All the 16.3-Ns struck over Massachusetts cents that I could attribute have=
been struck over 1787 Ryder 1-B cents. I know of about 14 1-B cents =
and 25-30 examples that were host planchets for 16.3-Ns. I'm confiden=
t that there are more of each waiting to be discovered.</div><div><br></div=
><div>I've seen few error coins in the Massachusetts copper series. T=
he most common error, by far, is clipped planchets. I've seen two hal=
f cent pieforts (half cents struck on cent-thickness planchets). I t=
hink these and a white metal half cent were test strikes. I've also s=
een three off-center strikes--one about 40% off-center--and two about 5% of=
f-center. All are 1788 Ryder 3-E cents. M y theory is that the =
coiner got his fingers pinched and was very tentative when inserting the ne=
xt few planchets into the press. I haven't found a blood-stained 3-E =
to support this, however. I've never seen a double-struck or brockage=
Massachusetts copper nor one struck over another coin. (I did once s=
ee a reference to a US half cent struck over a Massachusetts half cent, but=
have never been able to track it down.) Some Massachusetts coppers h=
ave planchet problems--striations, laminations and de-laminations, non-copp=
er metal inclusions from incomplete or careless smelting, and variable thic=
kness planchets that cause obverse and reverse striking weakness in the thi=
n areas. I hesitate to call these errors because they are not the res=
ult of striking problems. I'd like to hear form anyone who has, or ha=
s seen, Massachusetts copper errors other than clips.</div><div><br></div><=
div>Mike P</div></div><div><br> On Oct 07, 2015, at 08:28 PM, "<a href=3D"m=
ailto:Gry1564@aol.com" data-mce-href=3D"mailto:Gry1564@aol.com">Gry1564@aol=
.com</a> [colonial-coins]" <<a href=3D"mailto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups=
.com" data-mce-href=3D"mailto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com">colonial-coin=
s@yahoogroups.com</a>> wrote:<br> <br></div><div><blockquote><div class=
=3D"msg-quote" style=3D"background-color: rgb(255 , 255 , 255)" data-mce-st=
yle=3D"background-color: #ffffff;"><span> </span><div id=3D"ygrp-mlmsg=
"><div id=3D"ygrp-msg"><div id=3D"ygrp-text"><div><br></div><div><span styl=
e=3D"color: rgb(0 , 0 , 0) ; font-family: "arial" ; font-size: sm=
all" data-mce-style=3D"color: #000000; font-family: 'arial'; font-size: sma=
ll;">Bunch of Arrows on the Obv. bust.</span></div><div> </div><div><d=
iv>In a message dated 10/7/2015 8:23:08 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, <a href=
=3D"mailto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com" data-mce-href=3D"mailto:colonial=
-coins@yahoogroups.com">colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com</a> writes:</div><bl=
ockquote style=3D"margin-left: 5px ; border-left-color: blue ; border-left-=
width: 2px ; border-left-style: solid" data-mce-style=3D"margin-left: 5px; =
border-left-color: blue; border-left-width: 2px; border-left-style: solid;"=
><span style=3D"color: rgb(0 , 0 , 0) ; font-family: "arial" ; fo=
nt-size: x-small ; background-color: transparent" data-mce-style=3D"color: =
#000000; font-family: 'arial'; font-size: x-small; background-color: transp=
arent;"><span style=3D"color: rgb(0 , 0 , 0) ; font-family: "arial&quo=
t; ; font-size: x-small ; background-color: transparent" data-mce-style=3D"=
color: #000000; font-family: 'arial'; font-size: x-small; background-color:=
transparent;"><span> </span></span></span><div id=3D"ygrp-text"><div>=
I noticed in the April 2006 Colonial Newsletter there is mention of 1788 Co=
nnecticut 16.3-N struck over a 1787 counterfeit Massachusetts cent; the att=
ached pic is of an auction listed 16.3-N claimed to be struck over a Massac=
husetts cent- how can you tell from the pics?<br> <br> Best,<br> <br> Jack<=
/div></div></blockquote></div><div><br></div></div><div style=3D"height: 0p=
x ; color: rgb(255 , 255 , 255)" data-mce-style=3D"height: 0px; color: #fff=
fff;"><br></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br> <br><div style=3D=
"color: white" data-mce-style=3D"color: white;"><br></div></blockquote></di=
v><div><br></div></div><div style=3D"color: #fff ; height: 0" data-mce-styl=
e=3D"color: #fff; height: 0;"><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div=
><p><br></p></div><div style=3D"color: #fff ; height: 0" data-mce-style=3D"=
color: #fff; height: 0;"></div></div></blockquote></div></body></html>
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