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Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Re: Colonial Copper over-strikes
X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=78843690; y=vst-J1R4a3CUJ9tAcRqOKIwRamWvyRr5L-Tc-xuyTlqy
X-Yahoo-Profile: njray2
From: Ray Williams <njraywms@optonline.net>
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Mike,
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Do you think that if the Boston mint continued, it=
would have=20
overcome the start up costs and eventually made a profit?
Ray
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
On Thu, Oct 08, 2015 at 06:59 PM, Michael Packard mpackard3@mac.com=20
[colonial-coins] wrote:
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
Craig,
The Massachusetts copper mint =C2=A0lost money as you stated. =C2=A0It clos=
ed, not=20
because it was losing money, but because the new U.S. Constitution=20
provided that only the federal government had the right to coin money.=20
=C2=A0The General court was frustrated at the lack of money coined and was =
in=20
the process of replacing Witherle as mintmaster when the ninth state=20
ratified the Constitution, putting its provisions into effect. =C2=A0
There were a number of reasons for the Massachusetts mint lost money,=20
the biggest, from my perspective, is that they did not strike coppers=20
quickly enough. Any manufacturing concern will have relatively high=20
initial fixed costs (buildings, machinery, etc.) and those fixed costs=20
have to be amortized over time from the excess of the price of goods=20
sold over the cost of inputs (in this case, labor, copper, charcoal for=20
smelting metal to get relatively pure copper, carting the copper to
Dedham to draw it under the trip hammer and rolling it to thickness=20
and carting back again to Boston to have planchets cut and coins=20
struck). =C2=A0Some of these latter costs would have been eliminated had=20
Witherle set up the whole operation (or at least the smelting operation)=20
in Dedham (he couldn't set everything up in Boston because he needed a=20
water mill to drive the trip hammer). =C2=A0The costs of carting copper (bo=
th=20
time and money) and the costs of resolving problems at the new mint=20
(both time and money) cut into the time available for actually preparing=20
planchets and striking coins. =C2=A0The cost of copper, preparing planchets=
=20
and striking coins was less than the value of coins produced. =C2=A0If more=
=20
coins had been produced, the loss to the state would have been less and=20
eventually the mint would have turned into a profit. =C2=A0Obviously, the=20
faster the money was produced, the sooner the state would have turned a=20
profit. =C2=A0
Mike
P
On Oct 08, 2015, at 01:49 PM, "CMcdon0923@aol.com [colonial-coins]"=20
<colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
=C2=A0
Which as I have heard, is one of the reasons they couldn't maintain the=20
series....the cost of producing the coins was too high to cover the=20
costs and still allow for a decent profit.
Craig
-----Original Message-----
From: Ray Williams njraywms@optonline.net=20
<mailto:njraywms@optonline.net> [colonial-coins]=20
<colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com>
To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com=20
<mailto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com> colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com=20
<mailto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com>=20
<colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thu, Oct 8, 2015 6:40 am
Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Re: Colonial Copper over-strikes
=C2=A0
Great info Mike,
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 I knew that the MA Coppers were the best of the st=
ate coppers with=20
respect to quality control.=C2=A0 I didn't know the rest.=C2=A0 It would ma=
ke=20
agood article.
Thanks
Ray
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
On Wed, Oct 07, 2015 at 11:38 PM, Michael Packard mpackard3@mac.com=20
<mailto:mpackard3@mac.com> [colonial-coins] wrote:
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
Jack,
Usually you can see some of the undertype--most often part of the=20
Eagle's wing or a talon and some of the arrow shafts, as on this piece,=20
but sometimes part of the Indian or letters. =C2=A0=C2=A0
All the 16.3-Ns struck over Massachusetts cents that I could attribute=20
have been struck over 1787 Ryder 1-B cents. =C2=A0I know of about 14 1-B=20
cents and 25-30 examples that were host planchets for 16.3-Ns. =C2=A0I'm=20
confident that there are more of each waiting to be discovered.
I've seen few error coins in the Massachusetts copper series. =C2=A0The mos=
t=20
common error, by far, is clipped planchets. =C2=A0I've seen two half cent=20
pieforts (half cents struck on cent-thickness planchets). =C2=A0 I think=20
these and a white metal half cent were test strikes. =C2=A0I've also seen=20
three off-center
strikes--one about 40% off-center--and two about 5% off-center. =C2=A0All=
=20
are 1788 Ryder 3-E cents. =C2=A0M y theory is that the coiner got his finge=
rs=20
pinched and was very tentative when inserting the next few planchets=20
into the press. =C2=A0I haven't found a blood-stained 3-E to support this,=
=20
however. =C2=A0I've never seen a double-struck or brockage Massachusetts=20
copper nor one struck over another coin. =C2=A0(I did once see a reference =
to=20
a US half cent struck over a Massachusetts half cent, but have never=20
been able to track it down.) =C2=A0Some Massachusetts coppers have planchet=
=20
problems--striations, laminations and de-laminations, non-copper metal=20
inclusions from incomplete or careless smelting, and variable thickness=20
planchets that cause obverse and reverse striking weakness in the thin=20
areas. =C2=A0I hesitate to call these errors because they are not the resul=
t=20
of striking problems. =C2=A0I'd like to hear form anyone who has, or has=20
seen, Massachusetts copper errors other
than clips.
Mike P
On Oct 07, 2015, at 08:28 PM, "Gry1564@aol.com=20
<mailto:Gry1564@aol.com> [colonial-coins]"=20
<colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com <mailto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com>=20
> wrote:
=C2=A0
Bunch of Arrows on the Obv. bust.
=C2=A0
In a message dated 10/7/2015 8:23:08 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,=20
colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com <mailto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com>=20
writes:
=C2=A0
I noticed in the April 2006 Colonial Newsletter there is mention of 1788=20
Connecticut 16.3-N struck over a 1787 counterfeit Massachusetts cent;=20
the attached
pic is of an auction listed 16.3-N claimed to be struck over a=20
Massachusetts cent- how can you tell from the pics?
Best,
Jack
--Boundary_(ID_DLG9pSqULCO2DaiUZXUSjw)
Content-type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
Content-disposition: inline
Mike,</div><div> Do you think that if the Boston mi=
nt continued, it would have overcome the start up costs and eventually made=
a profit?</div><div>Ray</div><div style=3D"font-family: Verdana;"><div>&nb=
sp;</div><div> </div><div> </div>On Thu, Oct 08, 2015 at 06:59 PM=
, Michael Packard mpackard3@mac.com [colonial-coins] wrote:<div> </div=
><div> </div><blockquote style=3D"margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-l=
eft: 1ex; border-left-color: rgb(136, 136, 136); border-left-width: 2px; bo=
rder-left-style: solid;">
<br><br>
<div><div>Craig,</div><div><br></div><div>The Massachusetts copper mint &nb=
sp;lost money as you stated. It closed, not because it was losing mon=
ey, but because the new U.S. Constitution provided that only the federal go=
vernment had the right to coin money. The General court was frustrate=
d at the lack of money coined and was in the process of replacing Witherle =
as mintmaster when the ninth state ratified the Constitution, putting its p=
rovisions into effect. </div><div><br></div><div>There were a number =
of reasons for the Massachusetts mint lost money, the biggest, from my pers=
pective, is that they did not strike coppers quickly enough. Any manufactur=
ing concern will have relatively high initial fixed costs (buildings, machi=
nery, etc.) and those fixed costs have to be amortized over time from the e=
xcess of the price of goods sold over the cost of inputs (in this case, lab=
or, copper, charcoal for smelting metal to get relatively pure copper, cart=
ing the copper to
Dedham to draw it under the trip hammer and rolling it to thickness and ca=
rting back again to Boston to have planchets cut and coins struck). S=
ome of these latter costs would have been eliminated had Witherle set up th=
e whole operation (or at least the smelting operation) in Dedham (he couldn=
't set everything up in Boston because he needed a water mill to drive the =
trip hammer). The costs of carting copper (both time and money) and t=
he costs of resolving problems at the new mint (both time and money) cut in=
to the time available for actually preparing planchets and striking coins. =
The cost of copper, preparing planchets and striking coins was less t=
han the value of coins produced. If more coins had been produced, the=
loss to the state would have been less and eventually the mint would have =
turned into a profit. Obviously, the faster the money was produced, t=
he sooner the state would have turned a profit. </div><div><br></div>=
<div>Mike
P</div></div><div><br>On Oct 08, 2015, at 01:49 PM, "CMcdon0923@aol.com [c=
olonial-coins]" <colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com> wrote:<br><br></div>=
<div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div class=3D"msg-quote" style=3D"background=
-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" data-mce-style=3D"background-color: #fff;"><sp=
an style=3D"display: none;" data-mce-style=3D"display: none;"> </span>=
<div id=3D"ygrp-mlmsg" style=3D"position: relative;" data-mce-style=3D"posi=
tion: relative;"><div id=3D"ygrp-msg" style=3D"z-index: 1;" data-mce-style=
=3D"z-index: 1;"><div id=3D"ygrp-text"><p><span style=3D"color: black; font=
-family: arial; font-size: x-small;" color=3D"black" size=3D"2" data-mce-st=
yle=3D"color: black; font-family: arial; font-size: x-small;" face=3D"arial=
">Which as I have heard, is one of the reasons they couldn't maintain the s=
eries....the cost of producing the coins was too high to cover the costs an=
d still allow for a decent profit. </span></p><div><span style=3D"color: bl=
ack; font-family: arial; font-size: x-small;" color=3D"black" size=3D"2" da=
ta-mce-style=3D"color: black; font-family: arial; font-size: x-small;" fac=
e=3D"arial"><br> </span></div><div>Craig<br> <br> <br><div style=3D'color: =
black; font-family: "arial" , "helvetica"; font-size: 10pt;' data-mce-style=
=3D"font-family: 'arial' , 'helvetica'; font-size: 10pt; color: black;">---=
--Original Message-----<br> From: Ray Williams <a href=3D"mailto:njraywms@o=
ptonline.net" data-mce-href=3D"mailto:njraywms@optonline.net">njraywms@opto=
nline.net</a> [colonial-coins] <colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com><br> T=
o: <a href=3D"mailto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com" data-mce-href=3D"mailt=
o:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com">colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com</a> <a hre=
f=3D"mailto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com" data-mce-href=3D"mailto:colonia=
l-coins@yahoogroups.com">colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com</a> <colonial-co=
ins@yahoogroups.com><br> Sent: Thu, Oct 8, 2015 6:40 am<br> Subject: Re:=
[Colonial Numismatics] Re: Colonial Copper over-strikes<br> <br><div id=3D=
"AOLMsgPart_2_4510bb58-6611-4221-b5cd-83885b596298"><div class=3D"aolReplac=
edBody" style=3D"background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" data-mce-style=3D"b=
ackground-color: #fff;"><span> </span><div id=3D"ygrp-mlmsg"><div id=
=3D"ygrp-msg"><div id=3D"ygrp-text"><div>Great info Mike,</div><div> &=
nbsp; I knew that the MA Coppers were the best of the state cop=
pers with respect to quality control. I didn't know the rest. I=
t would make agood article.</div><div>Thanks</div><div>Ray</div><div style=
=3D'font-family: "verdana";' data-mce-style=3D"font-family: 'verdana';"><di=
v> </div><div> </div><div> </div>On Wed, Oct 07, 2015 at 11:=
38 PM, Michael Packard <a href=3D"mailto:mpackard3@mac.com" data-mce-href=
=3D"mailto:mpackard3@mac.com">mpackard3@mac.com</a>[colonial-coins] wrote:<=
div> </div><div> </div><blockquote style=3D"margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0=
.8ex; border-left-color: rgb(136, 136, 136); border-left-width: 2px; border=
-left-style: solid;" data-mce-style=3D"margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-l=
eft-color: #888888; border-left-width: 2px; border-left-style: solid;"><br>=
<br><div><div>Jack,</div><div><br></div><div>Usually you can see some of t=
he undertype--most often part of the Eagle's wing or a talon and some of th=
e arrow shafts, as on this piece, but sometimes part of the Indian or lette=
rs. </div><div><br></div><div>All the 16.3-Ns struck over Massa=
chusetts cents that I could attribute have been struck over 1787 Ryder 1-B =
cents. I know of about 14 1-B cents and 25-30 examples that were host=
planchets for 16.3-Ns. I'm confident that there are more of each wai=
ting to be discovered.</div><div><br></div><div>I've seen few error coins i=
n the Massachusetts copper series. The most common error, by far, is =
clipped planchets. I've seen two half cent pieforts (half cents struc=
k on cent-thickness planchets). I think these and a white metal half=
cent were test strikes. I've also seen three off-center
strikes--one about 40% off-center--and two about 5% off-center. All =
are 1788 Ryder 3-E cents. M y theory is that the coiner got his finge=
rs pinched and was very tentative when inserting the next few planchets int=
o the press. I haven't found a blood-stained 3-E to support this, how=
ever. I've never seen a double-struck or brockage Massachusetts coppe=
r nor one struck over another coin. (I did once see a reference to a =
US half cent struck over a Massachusetts half cent, but have never been abl=
e to track it down.) Some Massachusetts coppers have planchet problem=
s--striations, laminations and de-laminations, non-copper metal inclusions =
from incomplete or careless smelting, and variable thickness planchets that=
cause obverse and reverse striking weakness in the thin areas. I hes=
itate to call these errors because they are not the result of striking prob=
lems. I'd like to hear form anyone who has, or has seen, Massachusett=
s copper errors other
than clips.</div><div><br></div><div>Mike P</div></div><div><br> On Oct 07=
, 2015, at 08:28 PM, "<a href=3D"mailto:Gry1564@aol.com" data-mce-href=3D"m=
ailto:Gry1564@aol.com">Gry1564@aol.com</a> [colonial-coins]" <<a href=3D=
"mailto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com" data-mce-href=3D"mailto:colonial-co=
ins@yahoogroups.com">colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com</a>> wrote:<br> <br>=
</div><div><blockquote><div class=3D"msg-quote" style=3D"background-color: =
rgb(255, 255, 255);" data-mce-style=3D"background-color: #ffffff;"><span>&n=
bsp;</span><div id=3D"ygrp-mlmsg"><div id=3D"ygrp-msg"><div id=3D"ygrp-text=
"><div><br></div><div><span style=3D'color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: "ari=
al"; font-size: small;' data-mce-style=3D"color: #000000; font-family: 'ari=
al'; font-size: small;">Bunch of Arrows on the Obv. bust.</span></div><div>=
</div><div><div>In a message dated 10/7/2015 8:23:08 P.M. Eastern Day=
light Time, <a href=3D"mailto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com" data-mce-href=
=3D"mailto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com">colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com</=
a> writes:</div><blockquote style=3D"margin-left: 5px; border-left-color: b=
lue; border-left-width: 2px; border-left-style: solid;" data-mce-style=3D"m=
argin-left: 5px; border-left-color: blue; border-left-width: 2px; border-le=
ft-style: solid;"><span style=3D'color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: "arial";=
font-size: x-small; background-color: transparent;' data-mce-style=3D"colo=
r: #000000; font-family: 'arial'; font-size: x-small; background-color: tra=
nsparent;"><span style=3D'color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: "arial"; font-s=
ize: x-small; background-color: transparent;' data-mce-style=3D"color: #000=
000; font-family: 'arial'; font-size: x-small; background-color: transparen=
t;"><span> </span></span></span><div id=3D"ygrp-text"><div>I noticed i=
n the April 2006 Colonial Newsletter there is mention of 1788 Connecticut 1=
6.3-N struck over a 1787 counterfeit Massachusetts cent; the attached
pic is of an auction listed 16.3-N claimed to be struck over a Massachuset=
ts cent- how can you tell from the pics?<br> <br> Best,<br> <br> Jack</div>=
</div></blockquote></div><div><br></div></div><div style=3D"height: 0px; co=
lor: rgb(255, 255, 255);" data-mce-style=3D"height: 0px; color: #ffffff;"><=
br></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br> <br><div style=3D"color:=
white;" data-mce-style=3D"color: white;"><br></div></blockquote></div><div=
><br></div></div><div style=3D"height: 0px; color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" dat=
a-mce-style=3D"color: #fff; height: 0;"><br></div></div></div></div></div><=
/div></div><p><br></p></div><div style=3D"height: 0px; color: rgb(255, 255,=
255);" data-mce-style=3D"color: #fff; height: 0;"></div></div></div></div>=
</blockquote></div>
<br>
<br>
<div style=3D"color: white; clear: both;" width=3D"1"></div>
</blockquote>
--Boundary_(ID_DLG9pSqULCO2DaiUZXUSjw)--
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