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Subject: Hobby starts
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From: Ray Williams <njraywms@optonline.net>
--Boundary_(ID_QDNBb+NzENqvDHxvG/k4Lw)
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Mike,
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 I look forward to seeing you at C4.=C2=A0 And that=
thing I used to bug=20
you about...=C2=A0 I haven't given up!=C2=A0
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 I jumped into the hobby and collected nothing but =
NJs because if=20
the influence of John Griffee.=C2=A0 He was just inspiring to be around.=C2=
=A0 Not=20
living in New England, what was it that inspired you to pursue MA=20
Copper?=C2=A0 I'd enjoy hearing how others got interested in colonials.=C2=
=A0 Very=20
few people start collecting colonials out of the blue...=C2=A0 we collect=20
something federal until we get exposed to something that inspires us to=20
change direction and collect what we do.
Ray
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
On Fri, Oct 09, 2015 at 01:29 AM, Michael Packard mpackard3@mac.com=20
[colonial-coins] wrote:
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
Ray,
I do, but it would have taken some time. =C2=A0We can talk about it more at=
=20
C4.
Mike
On Oct 08, 2015, at 10:32 PM, "Ray Williams njraywms@optonline.net=20
[colonial-coins]" <colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
=C2=A0
Mike,
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Do you think that if the Boston mint continued, it=
would have=20
overcome the start up costs and eventually made a profit?
Ray
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
On Thu, Oct 08, 2015 at 06:59 PM, Michael Packard mpackard3@mac.com=20
<mailto:mpackard3@mac.com> [colonial-coins] wrote:
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
Craig,
The Massachusetts copper mint =C2=A0lost money as you stated. =C2=A0It clos=
ed, not=20
because it was losing money, but because the new U.S. Constitution=20
provided that only the federal government had the right to coin money.=20
=C2=A0The General court was frustrated at the lack of money coined and was =
in=20
the process of replacing Witherle as mintmaster when the ninth state=20
ratified the Constitution, putting its provisions
into effect. =C2=A0
There were a number of reasons for the Massachusetts mint lost money,=20
the biggest, from my perspective, is that they did not strike coppers=20
quickly enough. Any manufacturing concern will have relatively high=20
initial fixed costs (buildings, machinery, etc.) and those fixed costs=20
have to be amortized over time from the excess of the price of goods=20
sold over the cost of inputs (in this case, labor, copper, charcoal for=20
smelting metal to get relatively pure copper, carting the copper to=20
Dedham to draw it under the trip hammer and rolling it to thickness and=20
carting back again to Boston to have planchets cut and coins struck).=20
=C2=A0Some of these latter costs would have been eliminated had Witherle se=
t=20
up the whole operation (or at least the smelting operation) in Dedham=20
(he couldn't set everything up in Boston because he needed a water mill=20
to drive the trip hammer). =C2=A0The costs of carting copper (both time and=
=20
money) and the costs of
resolving problems at the new mint (both time and money) cut into the=20
time available for actually preparing planchets and striking coins. =C2=A0T=
he=20
cost of copper, preparing planchets and striking coins was less than the=20
value of coins produced. =C2=A0If more coins had been produced, the loss to=
=20
the state would have been less and eventually the mint would have turned=20
into a profit. =C2=A0Obviously, the faster the money was produced, the soon=
er=20
the state would have turned a profit. =C2=A0
Mike P
On Oct 08, 2015, at 01:49 PM, "CMcdon0923@aol.com [colonial-coins]"=20
<colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
=C2=A0
Which as I have heard, is one of the reasons they couldn't maintain the=20
series....the cost of producing the coins was too high to cover the=20
costs and still allow for a decent profit.
Craig
-----Original Message-----
From: Ray Williams njraywms@optonline.net=20
<mailto:njraywms@optonline.net> [colonial-coins]=20
<colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com>
To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com=20
<mailto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com> colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com=20
<mailto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com>=20
<colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thu, Oct 8, 2015 6:40 am
Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Re: Colonial Copper over-strikes
=C2=A0
Great info Mike,
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 I knew that the MA Coppers were the best of the st=
ate coppers with=20
respect to quality control.=C2=A0 I didn't know the rest.=C2=A0 It would ma=
ke=20
agood article.
Thanks
Ray
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
On Wed, Oct 07, 2015 at 11:38 PM, Michael Packard mpackard3@mac.com=20
<mailto:mpackard3@mac.com> [colonial-coins] wrote:
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
Jack,
Usually you can see some of the undertype--most often part of the=20
Eagle's wing or a talon and some of the arrow shafts, as on this piece,=20
but sometimes part of the Indian or letters. =C2=A0=C2=A0
All the 16.3-Ns struck over Massachusetts cents that I could attribute=20
have been struck over 1787 Ryder 1-B cents. =C2=A0I know of about 14 1-B=20
cents and 25-30 examples that were host planchets for
16.3-Ns. =C2=A0I'm confident that there are more of each waiting to be=20
discovered.
I've seen few error coins in the Massachusetts copper series. =C2=A0The mos=
t=20
common error, by far, is clipped planchets. =C2=A0I've seen two half cent=20
pieforts (half cents struck on cent-thickness planchets). =C2=A0 I think=20
these and a white metal half cent were test strikes. =C2=A0I've also seen=20
three off-center strikes--one about 40% off-center--and two about 5%=20
off-center. =C2=A0All are 1788 Ryder 3-E cents. =C2=A0M y theory is that th=
e=20
coiner got his fingers pinched and was very tentative when inserting the=20
next few planchets into the press. =C2=A0I haven't found a blood-stained 3-=
E=20
to support this, however. =C2=A0I've never seen a double-struck or brockage=
=20
Massachusetts copper nor one struck over another coin. =C2=A0(I did once se=
e=20
a reference to a US half cent struck over a Massachusetts half cent, but=20
have never been able to track it down.) =C2=A0Some Massachusetts
coppers have planchet problems--striations, laminations and=20
de-laminations, non-copper metal inclusions from incomplete or careless=20
smelting, and variable thickness planchets that cause obverse and=20
reverse striking weakness in the thin areas. =C2=A0I hesitate to call these=
=20
errors because they are not the result of striking problems. =C2=A0I'd like=
=20
to hear form anyone who has, or has seen, Massachusetts copper errors=20
other than clips.
Mike P
On Oct 07, 2015, at 08:28 PM, "Gry1564@aol.com=20
<mailto:Gry1564@aol.com> [colonial-coins]"=20
<colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com <mailto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com>=20
> wrote:
=C2=A0
Bunch of Arrows on the Obv. bust.
=C2=A0
In a message dated 10/7/2015 8:23:08 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,=20
colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com <mailto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com>=20
writes:
=C2=A0
I noticed in the April 2006 Colonial Newsletter there is mention of 1788=20
Connecticut 16.3-N struck over a 1787 counterfeit Massachusetts cent;=20
the attached pic is of an auction listed 16.3-N claimed to be struck=20
over a Massachusetts cent- how can you tell from the pics?
Best,
Jack
--Boundary_(ID_QDNBb+NzENqvDHxvG/k4Lw)
Content-type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
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Mike,</div><div> I look forward to seeing you at C4=
. And that thing I used to bug you about... I haven't given up!=
</div><div> I jumped into the hobby and coll=
ected nothing but NJs because if the influence of John Griffee. He wa=
s just inspiring to be around. Not living in New England, what was it=
that inspired you to pursue MA Copper? I'd enjoy hearing how others =
got interested in colonials. Very few people start collecting colonia=
ls out of the blue... we collect something federal until we get expos=
ed to something that inspires us to change direction and collect what we do=
.</div><div>Ray</div><div style=3D"font-family: Verdana;"><div> </div>=
<div> </div><div> </div>On Fri, Oct 09, 2015 at 01:29 AM, Michael=
Packard mpackard3@mac.com [colonial-coins] wrote:<div> </div><div>&nb=
sp;</div><blockquote style=3D"margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;=
border-left-color: rgb(136, 136, 136); border-left-width: 2px; border-left=
-style: solid;">
<br><br>
<div><div>Ray,</div><div><br></div><div>I do, but it would have taken some =
time. We can talk about it more at C4.</div><div><br></div><div>Mike<=
/div></div><div><br>On Oct 08, 2015, at 10:32 PM, "Ray Williams njraywms@op=
tonline.net [colonial-coins]" <colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com> wrote:=
<br><br></div><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div class=3D"msg-quote" style=
=3D"background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" data-mce-style=3D"background-col=
or: #fff;"><span style=3D"display: none;" data-mce-style=3D"display: none;"=
> </span><div id=3D"ygrp-mlmsg" style=3D"position: relative;" data-mce=
-style=3D"position: relative;"><div id=3D"ygrp-msg" style=3D"z-index: 1;" d=
ata-mce-style=3D"z-index: 1;"><div id=3D"ygrp-text"><p>Mike,</p><div> =
Do you think that if the Boston mint continued, it would=
have overcome the start up costs and eventually made a profit?</div><div>R=
ay</div><div style=3D'font-family: "verdana";' data-mce-style=3D"font-famil=
y: 'verdana';"><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div>On Thu, =
Oct 08, 2015 at 06:59 PM, Michael Packard <a href=3D"mailto:mpackard3@mac.c=
om" data-mce-href=3D"mailto:mpackard3@mac.com">mpackard3@mac.com</a>[coloni=
al-coins] wrote:<div> </div><div> </div><blockquote style=3D"marg=
in: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left-color: rgb(136, 136, 136); border-left-w=
idth: 2px; border-left-style: solid;" data-mce-style=3D"margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt=
0.8ex; border-left-color: #888888; border-left-width: 2px; border-left-sty=
le: solid;"><br><br><div><div>Craig,</div><div><br></div><div>The Massachus=
etts copper mint lost money as you stated. It closed, not becau=
se it was losing money, but because the new U.S. Constitution provided that=
only the federal government had the right to coin money. The General=
court was frustrated at the lack of money coined and was in the process of=
replacing Witherle as mintmaster when the ninth state ratified the Constit=
ution, putting its provisions
into effect. </div><div><br></div><div>There were a number of reason=
s for the Massachusetts mint lost money, the biggest, from my perspective, =
is that they did not strike coppers quickly enough. Any manufacturing conce=
rn will have relatively high initial fixed costs (buildings, machinery, etc=
.) and those fixed costs have to be amortized over time from the excess of =
the price of goods sold over the cost of inputs (in this case, labor, coppe=
r, charcoal for smelting metal to get relatively pure copper, carting the c=
opper to Dedham to draw it under the trip hammer and rolling it to thicknes=
s and carting back again to Boston to have planchets cut and coins struck).=
Some of these latter costs would have been eliminated had Witherle s=
et up the whole operation (or at least the smelting operation) in Dedham (h=
e couldn't set everything up in Boston because he needed a water mill to dr=
ive the trip hammer). The costs of carting copper (both time and mone=
y) and the costs of
resolving problems at the new mint (both time and money) cut into the time=
available for actually preparing planchets and striking coins. The c=
ost of copper, preparing planchets and striking coins was less than the val=
ue of coins produced. If more coins had been produced, the loss to th=
e state would have been less and eventually the mint would have turned into=
a profit. Obviously, the faster the money was produced, the sooner t=
he state would have turned a profit. </div><div><br></div><div>Mike P=
</div></div><div><br>On Oct 08, 2015, at 01:49 PM, "CMcdon0923@aol.com [col=
onial-coins]" <colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com> wrote:<br><br></div><d=
iv><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div class=3D"msg-quote" style=3D"background-c=
olor: rgb(255, 255, 255);" data-mce-style=3D"background-color: #ffffff;"><s=
pan> </span><div id=3D"ygrp-mlmsg"><div id=3D"ygrp-msg"><div id=3D"ygr=
p-text"><p><span style=3D'color: black; font-family: "arial"; font-size: x-=
small;' data-mce-style=3D"color: black; font-family: 'arial'; font-size: x-=
small;">Which as I have heard, is one of the reasons they couldn't maintain=
the series....the cost of producing the coins was too high to cover the co=
sts and still allow for a decent profit. </span></p><div><span style=3D'col=
or: black; font-family: "arial"; font-size: x-small;' data-mce-style=3D"col=
or: black; font-family: 'arial'; font-size: x-small;"><br> </span></div><di=
v>Craig<br> <br> <br><div style=3D'color: black; font-family: "arial" , "he=
lvetica"; font-size: 10pt;' data-mce-style=3D"color: black; font-family: 'a=
rial' , 'helvetica'; font-size: 10pt;">-----Original Message-----<br> From:=
Ray Williams <a href=3D"mailto:njraywms@optonline.net" data-mce-href=3D"ma=
ilto:njraywms@optonline.net">njraywms@optonline.net</a> [colonial-coins] &l=
t;colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com><br> To: <a href=3D"mailto:colonial-coi=
ns@yahoogroups.com" data-mce-href=3D"mailto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com"=
>colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com</a> <a href=3D"mailto:colonial-coins@yahoog=
roups.com" data-mce-href=3D"mailto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com">colonial=
-coins@yahoogroups.com</a> <colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com><br> Sent:=
Thu, Oct 8, 2015 6:40 am<br> Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Re: Colon=
ial Copper over-strikes<br> <br><div id=3D"AOLMsgPart_2_4510bb58-6611-4221-=
b5cd-83885b596298"><div class=3D"aolReplacedBody" style=3D"background-color=
: rgb(255, 255, 255);" data-mce-style=3D"background-color: #ffffff;"><span>=
</span><div id=3D"ygrp-mlmsg"><div id=3D"ygrp-msg"><div id=3D"ygrp-te=
xt"><div>Great info Mike,</div><div> I knew that th=
e MA Coppers were the best of the state coppers with respect to quality con=
trol. I didn't know the rest. It would make agood article.</div=
><div>Thanks</div><div>Ray</div><div style=3D'font-family: "verdana";' data=
-mce-style=3D"font-family: 'verdana';"><div> </div><div> </div><=
div> </div>On Wed, Oct 07, 2015 at 11:38 PM, Michael Packard <a href=
=3D"mailto:mpackard3@mac.com" data-mce-href=3D"mailto:mpackard3@mac.com">mp=
ackard3@mac.com</a>[colonial-coins] wrote:<div> </div><div> </div=
><blockquote style=3D"margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left-color: rgb(136=
, 136, 136); border-left-width: 2px; border-left-style: solid;" data-mce-st=
yle=3D"margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left-color: #888888; border-left-w=
idth: 2px; border-left-style: solid;"><br> <br><div><div>Jack,</div><div><b=
r></div><div>Usually you can see some of the undertype--most often part of =
the Eagle's wing or a talon and some of the arrow shafts, as on this piece,=
but sometimes part of the Indian or letters. </div><div><br></=
div><div>All the 16.3-Ns struck over Massachusetts cents that I could attri=
bute have been struck over 1787 Ryder 1-B cents. I know of about 14 1=
-B cents and 25-30 examples that were host planchets for
16.3-Ns. I'm confident that there are more of each waiting to be dis=
covered.</div><div><br></div><div>I've seen few error coins in the Massachu=
setts copper series. The most common error, by far, is clipped planch=
ets. I've seen two half cent pieforts (half cents struck on cent-thic=
kness planchets). I think these and a white metal half cent were tes=
t strikes. I've also seen three off-center strikes--one about 40% off=
-center--and two about 5% off-center. All are 1788 Ryder 3-E cents. &=
nbsp;M y theory is that the coiner got his fingers pinched and was very ten=
tative when inserting the next few planchets into the press. I haven'=
t found a blood-stained 3-E to support this, however. I've never seen=
a double-struck or brockage Massachusetts copper nor one struck over anoth=
er coin. (I did once see a reference to a US half cent struck over a =
Massachusetts half cent, but have never been able to track it down.) =
Some Massachusetts
coppers have planchet problems--striations, laminations and de-laminations=
, non-copper metal inclusions from incomplete or careless smelting, and var=
iable thickness planchets that cause obverse and reverse striking weakness =
in the thin areas. I hesitate to call these errors because they are n=
ot the result of striking problems. I'd like to hear form anyone who =
has, or has seen, Massachusetts copper errors other than clips.</div><div><=
br></div><div>Mike P</div></div><div><br> On Oct 07, 2015, at 08:28 PM, "<a=
href=3D"mailto:Gry1564@aol.com" data-mce-href=3D"mailto:Gry1564@aol.com">G=
ry1564@aol.com</a> [colonial-coins]" <<a href=3D"mailto:colonial-coins@y=
ahoogroups.com" data-mce-href=3D"mailto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com">col=
onial-coins@yahoogroups.com</a>> wrote:<br> <br></div><div><blockquote><=
div class=3D"msg-quote" style=3D"background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" dat=
a-mce-style=3D"background-color: #ffffff;"><span> </span><div id=3D"yg=
rp-mlmsg"><div id=3D"ygrp-msg"><div id=3D"ygrp-text"><div><br></div><div><s=
pan style=3D'color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: "arial"; font-size: small;' =
data-mce-style=3D"color: #000000; font-family: 'arial'; font-size: small;">=
Bunch of Arrows on the Obv. bust.</span></div><div> </div><div><div>In=
a message dated 10/7/2015 8:23:08 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, <a href=3D"m=
ailto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com" data-mce-href=3D"mailto:colonial-coin=
s@yahoogroups.com">colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com</a> writes:</div><blockqu=
ote style=3D"margin-left: 5px; border-left-color: blue; border-left-width: =
2px; border-left-style: solid;" data-mce-style=3D"margin-left: 5px; border-=
left-color: blue; border-left-width: 2px; border-left-style: solid;"><span =
style=3D'color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: "arial"; font-size: x-small; bac=
kground-color: transparent;' data-mce-style=3D"color: #000000; font-family:=
'arial'; font-size: x-small; background-color: transparent;"><span style=
=3D'color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: "arial"; font-size: x-small; backgrou=
nd-color: transparent;' data-mce-style=3D"color: #000000; font-family: 'ari=
al'; font-size: x-small; background-color: transparent;"><span> </span=
></span></span><div id=3D"ygrp-text"><div>I noticed in the April 2006 Colon=
ial Newsletter there is mention of 1788 Connecticut 16.3-N struck over a 17=
87 counterfeit Massachusetts cent; the attached pic is of an auction listed=
16.3-N claimed to be struck over a Massachusetts cent- how can you tell fr=
om the pics?<br> <br> Best,<br> <br> Jack</div></div></blockquote></div><di=
v><br></div></div><div style=3D"height: 0px; color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" da=
ta-mce-style=3D"height: 0px; color: #ffffff;"><br></div></div></div></div><=
/blockquote></div><br> <br><div style=3D"color: white;" data-mce-style=3D"c=
olor: white;"><br></div></blockquote></div><div><br></div></div><div style=
=3D"height: 0px; color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" data-mce-style=3D"height: 0px;=
color: #ffffff;"><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><p><br></p=
></div><div style=3D"height: 0px; color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" data-mce-styl=
e=3D"height: 0px; color: #ffffff;"><br></div></div></div></div></blockquote=
></div><br> <br><div style=3D"color: white;" data-mce-style=3D"color: white=
;"><br></div></blockquote></div><p><br></p></div><div style=3D"height: 0px;=
color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" data-mce-style=3D"color: #fff; height: 0;"></d=
iv></div></div></div></blockquote></div>
<br>
<br>
<div style=3D"color: white; clear: both;" width=3D"1"></div>
</blockquote>
--Boundary_(ID_QDNBb+NzENqvDHxvG/k4Lw)--
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